best place to buy dairy farm

For the dairy folks and/or beef folks with questions about udders, milk and mastitis.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby cbcr » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:04 pm

TexasBred wrote:You bring out the exception rather than the rule.

http://www.progressivedairy.com/topics/ ... -pound-cow


Not an exception, crossbreeding is on a continual growth. We have 1 to 2 calls daily from producers looking for bulls of our breeds. The bulls of our breeds are selling for well over $4,000 per head and their are few bulls available.

To often producers are so closed minded and think that if a milk cow isn't black and white, then it is not a milk cow. Bankers also fall into this close minded group.

The Fleckvieh being the second largest breed in numbers in the World only behind the Holstein says something in itself, that means they our number Jersey's too.

What is really ironic is that some producers have tried some crossbreeding, and usually end up using the semen on the cow that they are having problems getting bred or they use it on one of the lower end producing cows just so that they can prove that a crossbred can't produce. What happens, the animal that they were thinking would be a failure is producing right with or above Holstein herd mates. Just think what the outcome would have been had they used the semen on some of the higher producing animals.

Their is too many advantages to crossbred dairy animals, but some people as the saying goes "can't seem to see the forest for the trees" and are unwilling and unable to think outside the box.

Don't get us wrong, the Holstein is still a good animal, but she has been bred so much for production and they will kill themselves trying to produce. What value does a dead cow have? Utilizing our strength breeds, Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde, will produce an animal that is able to sustain that higher milk production and is more sound, fertile, healthier, more trouble free, and longer-lived.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Mon May 02, 2016 8:53 am

You still point out the exception rather than the rule. True cross bred animals have performed well on dairies but most are basically a dead end. What do you then breed them to, in hopes of continuing to increase production and components? Most problems in all dairy cow breeds have more to do with the environment and management rather than genetics. Pushed to the limit any breed of dairy animal will fold.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby cbcr » Mon May 02, 2016 11:04 pm

TexasBred wrote:You still point out the exception rather than the rule. True cross bred animals have performed well on dairies but most are basically a dead end. What do you then breed them to, in hopes of continuing to increase production and components? Most problems in all dairy cow breeds have more to do with the environment and management rather than genetics. Pushed to the limit any breed of dairy animal will fold.


I don't know why you think that crossbred dairy animals are a dead end. Producers are using the ProCross system which is a continual 3-way cross of Holstein, Montbeliarde and Viking Red. Some are substituting Fleckvieh in place of the Montbeliarde. Others are breeding to to purebred animals of these breeds as well. We have one member that has just a few Holstein cows left in the herd and everything else is at least 50% up to purebred with a few fullbloods (from ET).

There are many thing that are inherited in all animals and some traits have a higher heritable % than others. Key fact, dairymen are seeing with crosses increased fertility, higher components, lower somatic cell counts, healthier animals and longer productive life.

US research has indicated that Montbeliarde and Scandinavian Red crossbred cows in particular are more profitable than Holsteins!

The high milk production potential and high efficiency for milk production of the Holstein cow has led to the dominance of the Holstein breed in many parts of the world. However, selection programs that resulted in these high levels of milk production largely ignored functional traits. The subsequent decline in fertility, health and longevity within the Holstein population has now been thoroughly documented. As a result, the additional benefits gained with the Holstein breed, through increased milk production efficiency, have been lost through poorer cow health and longevity.

One producer commented that looking back to a year when an equal number of female Holsteins to Crossbreds was born (49 Crossbreds to 50 Holsteins), that today, only 1 of those Holsteins compared to 9 Crossbreds are still producing in the herd. This is pretty typical, the crossbred animals have fewer health problems. Producers with crossbred animals get to the point they have surplus animals to sell because they are not having to replace as many cows that are leaving the herd.

Environment does have an impact on an animal, but you have to have an animal that can be able to perform in those environments. With all things being equal, why is it that the crossbred animals are able to hold up better in these environments and management than the traditional breeds? Genetics?

Arguments can be made both ways, but those that are crossbreeding are continuing with their crossbreeding and liking the results. On the last several dairy genetic evaluations, looking at the elite cow list which is the top 5% of all cows, registered or grade, the top animals of every breed are crossbred animals. This includes what is called our traditional dairy breeds of Holstein, Jersey, Brown Swiss, Ayrshire, Guernsey and Milking Shorthorn. Some of these breeds, the majority of animals on the list are crossbred in that breed.

Crossbreeding or our breeds may not be for everyone, but those that have tried it are happy with the results and doing more crossbreeding.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Tue May 03, 2016 8:50 am

Many that have tried it were also very unhappy with the results and returned to their purebreds. Crossbreeding can definitely affect components in a positive way but will almost never increase production when attempted with high producing Holsteins.

You refer to the cow that produced 50K of milk in one year. That would be the exception right?? And an even greater exception to do it two lactations consecutively. Now consider the Holstein that produced 75K in one lactation. That's 50% more yet I will admit too that she is definitely the exception.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby cbcr » Tue May 03, 2016 9:52 am

The primary reason that some were unhappy with the results, is they did not give it a fair trial. They used the bulls on lower end cows and occasionally on some of the higher producers when they couldn't get them bred. They set themselves up for failure and then want to criticize the outcome. But the surprising thing is some of the resulting offspring produced quite well.

There have been study's don that show that crossbred animals can and are more profitable than Holsteins.

The Holstein that produced the 75K of milk was pampered and cared for special. The Montbeliarde cow was not.

Dead cows are not profitable! Dead calves are not profitable! Vet bills are not cheap either!!

To many people, they are so set in their ways and opinions that anything other than a Holstein is not a milk cow!

Crossbreeding is not for everyone, especially when they want to try and prove it is a failure and then criticize it.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Tue May 03, 2016 10:16 am

cbcr wrote:The primary reason that some were unhappy with the results, is they did not give it a fair trial. They used the bulls on lower end cows and occasionally on some of the higher producers when they couldn't get them bred. They set themselves up for failure and then want to criticize the outcome. But the surprising thing is some of the resulting offspring produced quite well.

There have been study's don that show that crossbred animals can and are more profitable than Holsteins.

The Holstein that produced the 75K of milk was pampered and cared for special. The Montbeliarde cow was not.

Dead cows are not profitable! Dead calves are not profitable! Vet bills are not cheap either!!

To many people, they are so set in their ways and opinions that anything other than a Holstein is not a milk cow!

Crossbreeding is not for everyone, especially when they want to try and prove it is a failure and then criticize it.




And you know all this to be fact even though you probably have no idea who my fellow dairymen were that tried this for years and it did not work.....And apparently neither are full blood "anything" for everyone according to you.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby cbcr » Tue May 03, 2016 9:41 pm

TexasBred wrote:
cbcr wrote:The primary reason that some were unhappy with the results, is they did not give it a fair trial. They used the bulls on lower end cows and occasionally on some of the higher producers when they couldn't get them bred. They set themselves up for failure and then want to criticize the outcome. But the surprising thing is some of the resulting offspring produced quite well.

There have been study's don that show that crossbred animals can and are more profitable than Holsteins.

The Holstein that produced the 75K of milk was pampered and cared for special. The Montbeliarde cow was not.

Dead cows are not profitable! Dead calves are not profitable! Vet bills are not cheap either!!

To many people, they are so set in their ways and opinions that anything other than a Holstein is not a milk cow!

Crossbreeding is not for everyone, especially when they want to try and prove it is a failure and then criticize it.




And you know all this to be fact even though you probably have no idea who my fellow dairymen were that tried this for years and it did not work.....And apparently neither are full blood "anything" for everyone according to you.


Study after study has been done and proven the benefits of crossbreeding. Here is another link to the ProCross Facebook page where a study was done in Denmark, https://www.facebook.com/ProCross-153490411401564/ Here is another link from Bayern Genetics on two herd in the US and herds in Canada using Fleckvieh: http://www.fleckvieh.de/Fleckviehwelt/World/FVW_2012/World-28-32.pdf

You have not shown anything just comments and statements that Holsteins are superior.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Wed May 04, 2016 10:34 am

cbcr it's a fairly well known fact that no breed will consistently out milk a herd of good Holsteins when the competition is in the same climate, same feeding program, same milking program and statistics back that up. !!!!! Of course you can always find the occasional exception. You can also relocate those high producing herds of any breed 200 miles either direction and all your numbers will go to he//.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby cbcr » Wed May 04, 2016 10:44 am

TexasBred wrote:cbcr it's a fairly well known fact that no breed will consistently out milk a herd of good Holsteins when the competition is in the same climate, same feeding program, same milking program and statistics back that up. !!!!! Of course you can always find the occasional exception. You can also relocate those high producing herds of any breed 200 miles either direction and all your numbers will go to he//.


Typically, Holstein may produce around 5% more milk, but if you look at the components, then our breeds are higher. Even thought the Holstein may outproduce some breeds, the feed to milk conversion ration is quite high. Other breeds are much more feed efficient thus resulting in more net profit per cow.

But net profit per cow with crossbreds also increases due to better cow health, lower SCC, better fertility, stronger, etc.

Advantage of Crossbred vs Staightbred Animals Trait Percentage
Cow Efficiency 8%
Cow Longevity 38%
Cow Lifetime Production 25%
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Wed May 04, 2016 11:51 am

Table 1. First Lactation Milk Production (actual 305 with 2x milking)
Holstein Montbeliarde Scandinavian Red
. x Holstein x Holstein
Number of Cows 380 494 328
Milk (lbs) 21,801 20,305** 20499**
Protein (lbs) 777 743** 756
Fat (lbs) 677 645** 655**
Fat + Protein (lbs) 1,454 1,388** 1,411*

Milk is sold by the hundredweight which I'm sure you know but components even though figured as percentages are also sold by the pound. Holsteins will produce more pounds of milk as well as more pounds of butterfat and protein. SCC is a management function as is breeding, calving ease and culling. Basically you guys are promoting a breeding program and a resulting offspring then operating the system to give the results you want. Down here in this area a normal Holstein will out milk a Jersey by 6000 lbs. per 305 day lactation.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby cbcr » Wed May 04, 2016 10:03 pm

A 10-year designed study on crossbreeding is ongoing with 8 large-scale and high-performance dairy herds in Minnesota. The end of 2015 marked the conclusion of the 8th year of the 10-year study. The interest in, and use of, crossbreeding by dairy producers served as the motivation for this research. Dairy producers often express disappointment with the health, fertility, and survival of their pure Holstein (HO) cows. Also, owners/managers of the 8 dairy herds participating in this study were aware of the greater profitability for 2-breed crossbreds of HO with the Montbeliarde and Viking Red breeds compared to pure HO cows from a previous field study in California.

The 8 dairy herds are located throughout Minnesota and are elite herds for milk production in the state. Collectively, these herds currently have average production from milk recording of 30,410 lbs. of milk, 1,115 lbs. of fat, and 943 lbs. of protein with 3-times daily milking. All of the herd owners/managers had positive previous experiences from milking some crossbred cows alongside pure HO cows in their herds, and their previous success with crossbred cows sparked their interest in participating in the study. The 8 dairy herds range in size from 275 to 1,940 cows.

Image
It’s important to note the analysis for production did not adjust for differences in pregnancy status (fertility) between the breed groups and, on average, the crossbred cows calved sooner with their second calves than did the pure HO cows. Because of this advantage for fertility, the crossbred cows also returned to peak production more quickly with second calving than did their pure HO herdmates.

Stillbirth rate-All (%), 9% - Holstein, 4% - Montbeliarde x Holstein, 5% - Viking Red x Holstein

Dairy producers are accustomed to stillbirth rates in excess of 8% for pure HO calves. Applying a fixed value of $500 to all live calves, the advantage of 4% to 5% more live calves for the crossbreds equates to more than $22,000 additional profit from the 997 crossbred calves in this study. Also, in most instances, crossbred bull calves sell for a premium price compared to pure HO bull calves.

Montbeliarde ×Holstein cows produced 3% more actual fat plus protein production (lbs.) during the first 305 days of their first lactations than their pure Holstein herdmates, and Viking Red × Holstein cows were similar (+1% numerically) to pure HO cows for fat plus protein production (lbs.).
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Mon May 09, 2016 9:31 am

Ok so much for all the research which I realize is always done under the most ideal of conditions and everyone does everything by the book. Tell me about your on farm dairy experience and actual on farm knowledge. BTW your stats above do not correspond with the written portion.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby frieghttrain » Mon May 09, 2016 12:03 pm

Don't get us wrong, the Holstein is still a good animal, but she has been bred so much for production and they will kill themselves trying to produce. What value does a dead cow have? Utilizing our strength breeds, Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde, will produce an animal that is able to sustain that higher milk production and is more SOUND fertile, HEALTH, more TROUBLE FREE, and LONGER LIVED.[/quote] :bs:
My boss has had so many problems with the feet and them wanting to kick the milker of for the first month of milking and low udders he'll never get them again. And fleckveih is a fancy name for simmental. :cowboy:
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby TexasBred » Mon May 09, 2016 2:14 pm

frieghttrain wrote:Don't get us wrong, the Holstein is still a good animal, but she has been bred so much for production and they will kill themselves trying to produce. What value does a dead cow have? Utilizing our strength breeds, Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde, will produce an animal that is able to sustain that higher milk production and is more SOUND fertile, HEALTH, more TROUBLE FREE, and LONGER LIVED.
:bs:
My boss has had so many problems with the feet and them wanting to kick the milker of for the first month of milking and low udders he'll never get them again. And fleckveih is a fancy name for simmental. :cowboy:[/quote]
Poor udders can be corrected. Same for foot problems. All in good management.
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Re: best place to buy dairy farm

Postby frieghttrain » Mon May 09, 2016 2:20 pm

You're right but sometimes it's better just to cull.
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