If old genitics

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Andyva
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Andyva » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:42 pm

I always figured that there was shorthorn added to knock the horns off and simmental to give them the pigment around the eyes. But I could be wrong.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:48 pm

Andyva wrote:I always figured that there was shorthorn added to knock the horns off and simmental to give them the pigment around the eyes. But I could be wrong.


No doubt about the Simmental. The effects of Titan are still being felt by commercial breeders. There is speculation about other breeds including Red Angus. The thing for certain is that there is some impurity. That can be verified by some of the issues that have been experienced. The same goes for Angus. As a commercial breeder I would like to see a test and the "other" breeds listed. This allows me to make better decisions in whether to use a bull and how to mate him if I do. IMO the Hereford association in the past has refused to aknowledge known impurities until an issue comes up like the Titan issue. And then they didn't fully address it. There are still grey calves showing up at times. It is like putting lipstick on a pig he is still a pig.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:00 pm

SPH wrote:
farmguy wrote:SPH I could not agree more. I too was banned from HT as I think you were for not going with the flow. Really we have people reporting about the birth of polled Herefords and reporting what neighbors to some people had over 100 years ago for cattle and the condition of their fences were in. Therefore other breeds were introduced over a century ago. To obtain that info must have been a feat, my congratulations. I too have been to cattle events to hear some Hereford breeders bashing the breed. Hmmmm where's the Angus breeder list? As I have said before I had expected other breeders to point out the advantages to their breed and even weaknesses in other breeds. But I did not expect to hear Hereford breeders bashing Herefords. just my thoughts,farmguy.


You, me, and several other good folks are part of a growing list of banned people on HT. Either fall in line with the agenda and bashing there else you will be censored. I still have never heard a peep from the dictator running that site who banned me without saying a word nor after I tried to contact him on why he did it but I pretty much know why as his silence and the fact he won't even acknowledge me proves the point above because if it was truly a free and open discussion there then guys like you, me, and some others who I still keep in touch with and are still following the discussions there would not have been banned. I actually don't miss being able to post there anymore with the direction it has gone the past year, it has become so negative and hateful and I as have others here commented it basically has become a form of entertainment at this point to see those who are left basically obsess over certain things and rip and turn on each other at times. I found HT several years ago while doing searches on some bulls and really enjoyed it initially and made some great contacts through it but it has become such a place full of negativity and bashing of others I had really scaled back on my posting the months leading up to my banning because no matter how logical or positive you may be in your contributions to a discussion some of those guys will never see that there are always 2 sides to a discussion and just because you repeat the same thing over and over and try to convince that it's true doesn't necessarily make it factual.

Some of these guys wonder why they have a hard time selling their cattle, well who wants to buy from someone that is openly ripping on the very breed they are raising? It would be like a car salesman telling you the vehicle he is trying to sell you all the things he doesn't like about it and saying the brand he sells is dishonest and unethical. Does the Hereford breed have room to improve on things? Of course they do but I don't feel that things are as dire and bleak as some are making them out to be and I feel that the breed has actually come a long ways to correct the problems of the past and the breed is probably as popular with the commercial cattlemen today than it has been in a long time. We've been selling bulls to guys with black cattle who not that long ago probably would never have given a Hereford bull a thought but the proof is in the results that guys are seeing with black baldies that have led to the increase in demand for Hereford bulls and I grow frustrated that some guys are so intent on obsessing over things and bad mouthing the breed and other breeders and people in the process that it is detrimental to the progress and popularity that the breed has going for it right now.

Back to the subject this thread was originally about in the first place. I don't see an issue with someone going back to use some older genetics if they feel that introducing them into their program will either help correct some issues they have or it might add something they need. But at the same time if we all are making progress and improvement in the cattle we breed then the current genetics available today should be useful as well else otherwise you are saying we haven't had any genetic improvements over the past several decades and many generations of breeding over those years and we've been spinning our tires in the mud this whole time. If there was such a thing as a perfect cow we wouldn't have all these different breeds or different types of crosses out there because cattle aren't like cookie cutters where you can make 1 type of cattle work across the board for everyone.


Travis haven't checked with you in a while. Was you able to sell all of your bulls this year. I ask only because most polled breeders around here have many if not most of their bulls left. Those who were able to sell out for the last 3 years have most left. Most horned breeders have only a few if any left. The exception on the polled side is one polled breeder in that area with a very good reputation. You walk into his group of 25-30 bulls and there will only be 3-4 of what would be called lower end. The rest you can gate cut and have a very good bull. I checked 3 weeks after they started selling and they had 2 bulls left. One was high headed and the other a little flighty acting also or I feel they would of been gone. They are now. Otherwise all polled breeders I've talked to have bulls left. I've had several beg me to come and take a look but I know what they have it for various reasons they won't work for me. And one breeder in particular has his bulls left but all of his bulls good enough for a good commercial herd are priced at 5. Hope you have been able to sell all of yours. There are many breeders of other breeds with bulls in their pens still so not just a polled issue. Again it just reinforces the fact that a good animal will always sell even in a down or glutted market. At least 3--40% of the bulls I see should of been castrated. But for the past 3 years they were able to sell them so some breeders I feel starting keeping bulls they were cutting 3 years ago.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby farmguy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:28 pm

"Travis haven't checked with you in a while. Was you able to sell all of your bulls this year. I ask only because most polled breeders around here have many if not most of their bulls left. Those who were able to sell out for the last 3 years have most left. Most horned breeders have only a few if any left. The exception on the polled side is one polled breeder in that area with a very good reputation. You walk into his group of 25-30 bulls and there will only be 3-4 of what would be called lower end. The rest you can gate cut and have a very good bull. I checked 3 weeks after they started selling and they had 2 bulls left. One was high headed and the other a little flighty acting also or I feel they would of been gone. They are now. Otherwise all polled breeders I've talked to have bulls left. I've had several beg me to come and take a look but I know what they have it for various reasons they won't work for me. And one breeder in particular has his bulls left but all of his bulls good enough for a good commercial herd are priced at 5. Hope you have been able to sell all of yours. There are many breeders of other breeds with bulls in their pens still so not just a polled issue. Again it just reinforces the fact that a good animal will always sell even in a down or glutted market. At least 3--40% of the bulls I see should of been castrated. But for the past 3 years they were able to sell them so some breeders I feel starting keeping bulls they were cutting 3 years ago."

I rest my case, farmguy.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby farmguy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:49 pm

"Andyva wrote:
I always figured that there was shorthorn added to knock the horns off and simmental to give them the pigment around the eyes. But I could be wrong.

No doubt about the Simmental. The effects of Titan are still being felt by commercial breeders. There is speculation about other breeds including Red Angus. The thing for certain is that there is some impurity. That can be verified by some of the issues that have been experienced. The same goes for Angus. As a commercial breeder I would like to see a test and the "other" breeds listed. This allows me to make better decisions in whether to use a bull and how to mate him if I do. IMO the Hereford association in the past has refused to aknowledge known impurities until an issue comes up like the Titan issue. And then they didn't fully address it. There are still grey calves showing up at times. It is like putting lipstick on a pig he is still a pig."

I don't know if the image will load, if it doesn't go to Hereford talk, purity thread, page 8 to view a picture. I am tired of this. Check elkwc posts on HT and here if you wish.

Image
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Turkeybird » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:22 pm

My, what small feet you have earl
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Re: If old genitics

Postby SPH » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:50 pm

elkwc wrote:
Travis haven't checked with you in a while. Was you able to sell all of your bulls this year. I ask only because most polled breeders around here have many if not most of their bulls left. Those who were able to sell out for the last 3 years have most left. Most horned breeders have only a few if any left. The exception on the polled side is one polled breeder in that area with a very good reputation. You walk into his group of 25-30 bulls and there will only be 3-4 of what would be called lower end. The rest you can gate cut and have a very good bull. I checked 3 weeks after they started selling and they had 2 bulls left. One was high headed and the other a little flighty acting also or I feel they would of been gone. They are now. Otherwise all polled breeders I've talked to have bulls left. I've had several beg me to come and take a look but I know what they have it for various reasons they won't work for me. And one breeder in particular has his bulls left but all of his bulls good enough for a good commercial herd are priced at 5. Hope you have been able to sell all of yours. There are many breeders of other breeds with bulls in their pens still so not just a polled issue. Again it just reinforces the fact that a good animal will always sell even in a down or glutted market. At least 3--40% of the bulls I see should of been castrated. But for the past 3 years they were able to sell them so some breeders I feel starting keeping bulls they were cutting 3 years ago.


We got all of our bulls sold Jay. Had 5 bulls in the pen, kept one for ourselves that we are using cleanup on the heifers and few cows and the other 4 all sold to commercial herds including 1 that went to Wyoming along with another bull from a guy that started his herd a few years ago with some heifers he bought from us and had a son out of Churchill Sure Bet which is a bull sired by Sensation. Curious to see how the WY bulls do as that was a new market for us and the buyer has been looking for some Hereford bulls for awhile now but the market and his budget are pretty limited where he is located at.

Really need some rain here soon. 110 heat index here the past couple days and feels like a sauna when you step outside. As I am writing this near midnight we still have a 96 heat index with 71% humidity. Cows pretty much are hanging out in the creeks and trees trying to keep cool and the fescue they are grazing doesn't help with that either. If it doesn't cool down a bit and get some meaningful rain may have to consider early weaning this year to take some stress off the cows as we have done in past years when we had drought conditions. Had some good weather during the early part of the breeding season so not worried so much about getting them bred back and we got some good cuttings of hay for the winter but too much more of the extreme heat we are having the cows could come out of pasture in pretty rough shape if they don't get some relief soon. Last night got 2.1" of rain at my house in about 90 minutes from a pop up thunderstorm but our farm about 25 miles west got nothing more than some sprinkles. Ground is so hard and dry right now that downpours probably just run off more than soak into the soil. Farms in the southern part of the state have gotten very little for rain since May and the crops there are going to be in trouble if they don't get some rain soon.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Hollis » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:11 am

Travis, I live about an hour from Mt Pleasant IA. We have had a few rains and them nothing. Glad u got your bulls sold. They looked good. This whole purity thing is getting out of hand.I like the info but not politics.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:40 am

I have seen the Hereford purity thing up close and personal. I used some old genetics "Trask" Plato Domino blood lines and had some spotted calves. With that being said, some of the baldie heifers from that breeding ended up being some of my best cows. But I have my doubts about ever using Hereford genetics again.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:43 am

Travis glad you got your bulls sold. We are having the heat and it is starting to dry out. We need more rain but in real good condition now. Bet your bull will fo fine in WYO.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Andyva » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:12 pm

So, with old genetics, is it possible to get back past when the other stuff was added? Or does it matter? We went hereford angus hereford angus for a lot of years. The last couple hereford bulls we had on the place looked good, but they didn't throw good replacement cows, which was the only reason we had them in the first place. I crossed over to the dark side of the other red british breed to use in a rotating cross bred commercial herd. The shorthorn people embrace their mixed up crossbred cattle. It says right on the pedigree what percentage of what is in there. All the known defects can be tested for and carrier status is on there too. If it's 15/16ths it is a purebred, the way they have it figured. There is old stuff floating around, in ampules, from back in the sixties. You might get back far enough to where the stuff that we know about was mixed in, what was back beyond that? If you go back far enough, you will have some stubby little cattle, according to all the pictures I have seen. I don't believe there is any semen old enough to go back beyond the belt buckle cattle craze back in the 40s and 50s.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Allenw » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:52 pm

SPH wrote:
farmguy wrote:SPH I could not agree more. I too was banned from HT as I think you were for not going with the flow. Really we have people reporting about the birth of polled Herefords and reporting what neighbors to some people had over 100 years ago for cattle and the condition of their fences were in. Therefore other breeds were introduced over a century ago. To obtain that info must have been a feat, my congratulations. I too have been to cattle events to hear some Hereford breeders bashing the breed. Hmmmm where's the Angus breeder list? As I have said before I had expected other breeders to point out the advantages to their breed and even weaknesses in other breeds. But I did not expect to hear Hereford breeders bashing Herefords. just my thoughts,farmguy.


You, me, and several other good folks are part of a growing list of banned people on HT. Either fall in line with the agenda and bashing there else you will be censored. I still have never heard a peep from the dictator running that site who banned me without saying a word nor after I tried to contact him on why he did it but I pretty much know why as his silence and the fact he won't even acknowledge me proves the point above because if it was truly a free and open discussion there then guys like you, me, and some others who I still keep in touch with and are still following the discussions there would not have been banned. I actually don't miss being able to post there anymore with the direction it has gone the past year, it has become so negative and hateful and I as have others here commented it basically has become a form of entertainment at this point to see those who are left basically obsess over certain things and rip and turn on each other at times. I found HT several years ago while doing searches on some bulls and really enjoyed it initially and made some great contacts through it but it has become such a place full of negativity and bashing of others I had really scaled back on my posting the months leading up to my banning because no matter how logical or positive you may be in your contributions to a discussion some of those guys will never see that there are always 2 sides to a discussion and just because you repeat the same thing over and over and try to convince that it's true doesn't necessarily make it factual.

Some of these guys wonder why they have a hard time selling their cattle, well who wants to buy from someone that is openly ripping on the very breed they are raising? It would be like a car salesman telling you the vehicle he is trying to sell you all the things he doesn't like about it and saying the brand he sells is dishonest and unethical. Does the Hereford breed have room to improve on things? Of course they do but I don't feel that things are as dire and bleak as some are making them out to be and I feel that the breed has actually come a long ways to correct the problems of the past and the breed is probably as popular with the commercial cattlemen today than it has been in a long time. We've been selling bulls to guys with black cattle who not that long ago probably would never have given a Hereford bull a thought but the proof is in the results that guys are seeing with black baldies that have led to the increase in demand for Hereford bulls and I grow frustrated that some guys are so intent on obsessing over things and bad mouthing the breed and other breeders and people in the process that it is detrimental to the progress and popularity that the breed has going for it right now.

Back to the subject this thread was originally about in the first place. I don't see an issue with someone going back to use some older genetics if they feel that introducing them into their program will either help correct some issues they have or it might add something they need. But at the same time if we all are making progress and improvement in the cattle we breed then the current genetics available today should be useful as well else otherwise you are saying we haven't had any genetic improvements over the past several decades and many generations of breeding over those years and we've been spinning our tires in the mud this whole time. If there was such a thing as a perfect cow we wouldn't have all these different breeds or different types of crosses out there because cattle aren't like cookie cutters where you can make 1 type of cattle work across the board for everyone.


I tried to get in but was never acknowledged. I read back through the old post and there was a lot of knowledge there, but as the participants have diminished or banned the quality has lessened.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Elder Statesman » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:03 pm

JWBrahman wrote:SPH,
The weird part is you have two Australians, an Englishman, and an Argentinean doing the most whining about American Herefords. Foreign competitors talking trash about America.

Look what happened when Nash Herefords posted photos of functional cattle with good feet, udders and pigment. They were immediately accused of being impure Hereford. Not by someone who has actually purchased and used their cattle, but by a foreign competitor.

How many cattlemen in the United States sell based on purity? Crickets

1) live calf every year
2) calf grows well on minimal inputs
3) carcass has above average yield with choice grade

Everything else is BS marketing, propaganda, and an outright attempt to destroy our reputation in the global marketplace.


My thoughts exactly. The Argentinean wouldn't take those good cattle because of black tail hair. lol And pigment and spots on their faces. They need to take a look at some of the paintings of some foundation Herefords from England in the 1800's.

And when I see pictures of some of those "pure" Herefords from South American and England, I am not impressed. And the commercial guys who buy bulls here wouldn't be either.

I fully believe this is a marketing gimmick by a few who want to claim they are the only source of "pure" genetics. Here and in England. It also serves as a platform for others to protest against the "big boys" and make themselves feel better.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Carlos F. » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:31 pm

Elder Statesman wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:SPH,
The weird part is you have two Australians, an Englishman, and an Argentinean doing the most whining about American Herefords. Foreign competitors talking trash about America.

Look what happened when Nash Herefords posted photos of functional cattle with good feet, udders and pigment. They were immediately accused of being impure Hereford. Not by someone who has actually purchased and used their cattle, but by a foreign competitor.

How many cattlemen in the United States sell based on purity? Crickets

1) live calf every year
2) calf grows well on minimal inputs
3) carcass has above average yield with choice grade

Everything else is BS marketing, propaganda, and an outright attempt to destroy our reputation in the global marketplace.


My thoughts exactly. The Argentinean wouldn't take those good cattle because of black tail hair. lol And pigment and spots on their faces. They need to take a look at some of the paintings of some foundation Herefords from England in the 1800's.

And when I see pictures of some of those "pure" Herefords from South American and England, I am not impressed. And the commercial guys who buy bulls here wouldn't be either.

I fully believe this is a marketing gimmick by a few who want to claim they are the only source of "pure" genetics. Here and in England. It also serves as a platform for others to protest against the "big boys" and make themselves feel better.

If you read my post in HT you will find why I don't take a very good bull with black hair. Those are the rules of the local Association.
And as far as breed purity, you better take it in account, since the dilution of the breed eventually ends in its dissaperance with all the business related to it, and that is true for any breed.
I have a commercial herd, starting to register some, and the degeneration of the breed type that I see in the last 40 years is the reason of my stance on breed purity. I am not selling seed stock but planning to do it in the future. I love the breed and I feel obliged to breeders that in the UK, USA, Argentina, Uruguay, South Africa and Australia have struggled to keep it pure and improve it.
As one of my uncles used to say: "freedom is free". You can accept the facts or negate them.
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elkwc
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:38 pm

Andyva wrote:So, with old genetics, is it possible to get back past when the other stuff was added? Or does it matter? We went hereford angus hereford angus for a lot of years. The last couple hereford bulls we had on the place looked good, but they didn't throw good replacement cows, which was the only reason we had them in the first place. I crossed over to the dark side of the other red british breed to use in a rotating cross bred commercial herd. The shorthorn people embrace their mixed up crossbred cattle. It says right on the pedigree what percentage of what is in there. All the known defects can be tested for and carrier status is on there too. If it's 15/16ths it is a purebred, the way they have it figured. There is old stuff floating around, in ampules, from back in the sixties. You might get back far enough to where the stuff that we know about was mixed in, what was back beyond that? If you go back far enough, you will have some stubby little cattle, according to all the pictures I have seen. I don't believe there is any semen old enough to go back beyond the belt buckle cattle craze back in the 40s and 50s.


As a commercial breeder I would like to
see all breeds represented in an animsl and the percentage of each. Also any known genetic defects and whether they are a carrier or nit. Now they can test pisitive and it isn't listed. The only way a ciommercial breeder kniws is ge has to visit the AHA site and check to see if they are or not.
Another problem I see and dewder buyers mention is the lack if uniformity in the progeny of many Hereford sires. I also find that ut is an angus issue too. I feel there are many reason so many sires siee progeny that are very non uniform. One is many dires are the result of matings of teo totally fifferent types. As a commercial beeder I want to know a bull I purchase will sire calves that look alike and perform. That invludes type and color. That is the reason I'm looking at some linebred polled herds. The heifers we purchased this year are L1's and look like peas in a pod.
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