If old genitics

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MRRherefords
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Re: If old genitics

Postby MRRherefords » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:18 am

Carlos F. wrote:
Elder Statesman wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:SPH,
The weird part is you have two Australians, an Englishman, and an Argentinean doing the most whining about American Herefords. Foreign competitors talking trash about America.

Look what happened when Nash Herefords posted photos of functional cattle with good feet, udders and pigment. They were immediately accused of being impure Hereford. Not by someone who has actually purchased and used their cattle, but by a foreign competitor.

How many cattlemen in the United States sell based on purity? Crickets

1) live calf every year
2) calf grows well on minimal inputs
3) carcass has above average yield with choice grade

Everything else is BS marketing, propaganda, and an outright attempt to destroy our reputation in the global marketplace.


My thoughts exactly. The Argentinean wouldn't take those good cattle because of black tail hair. lol And pigment and spots on their faces. They need to take a look at some of the paintings of some foundation Herefords from England in the 1800's.

And when I see pictures of some of those "pure" Herefords from South American and England, I am not impressed. And the commercial guys who buy bulls here wouldn't be either.

I fully believe this is a marketing gimmick by a few who want to claim they are the only source of "pure" genetics. Here and in England. It also serves as a platform for others to protest against the "big boys" and make themselves feel better.

If you read my post in HT you will find why I don't take a very good bull with black hair. Those are the rules of the local Association.
And as far as breed purity, you better take it in account, since the dilution of the breed eventually ends in its dissaperance with all the business related to it, and that is true for any breed.
I have a commercial herd, starting to register some, and the degeneration of the breed type that I see in the last 40 years is the reason of my stance on breed purity. I am not selling seed stock but planning to do it in the future. I love the breed and I feel obliged to breeders that in the UK, USA, Argentina, Uruguay, South Africa and Australia have struggled to keep it pure and improve it.
As one of my uncles used to say: "freedom is free". You can accept the facts or negate them.

Which we are still waiting on by the way.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Allenw » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:23 am

elkwc wrote:
Andyva wrote:So, with old genetics, is it possible to get back past when the other stuff was added? Or does it matter? We went hereford angus hereford angus for a lot of years. The last couple hereford bulls we had on the place looked good, but they didn't throw good replacement cows, which was the only reason we had them in the first place. I crossed over to the dark side of the other red british breed to use in a rotating cross bred commercial herd. The shorthorn people embrace their mixed up crossbred cattle. It says right on the pedigree what percentage of what is in there. All the known defects can be tested for and carrier status is on there too. If it's 15/16ths it is a purebred, the way they have it figured. There is old stuff floating around, in ampules, from back in the sixties. You might get back far enough to where the stuff that we know about was mixed in, what was back beyond that? If you go back far enough, you will have some stubby little cattle, according to all the pictures I have seen. I don't believe there is any semen old enough to go back beyond the belt buckle cattle craze back in the 40s and 50s.


As a commercial breeder I would like to
see all breeds represented in an animsl and the percentage of each. Also any known genetic defects and whether they are a carrier or nit. Now they can test pisitive and it isn't listed. The only way a ciommercial breeder kniws is ge has to visit the AHA site and check to see if they are or not.
Another problem I see and dewder buyers mention is the lack if uniformity in the progeny of many Hereford sires. I also find that ut is an angus issue too. I feel there are many reason so many sires siee progeny that are very non uniform. One is many dires are the result of matings of teo totally fifferent types. As a commercial beeder I want to know a bull I purchase will sire calves that look alike and perform. That invludes type and color. That is the reason I'm looking at some linebred polled herds. The heifers we purchased this year are L1's and look like peas in a pod.


I agree breed purity is important. If the animal has papers it should be 100% that breed or duly noted on the papers, as well as free from known genetic defects.

Chasing high EPD numbers is the cool thing right now or it seems to me, the last bull my younger brother bought I thought was a heifer when I seen it in the pasture, but he has high milk numbers. Chasing high EPD numbers is no different then picking for any single trait at the expense of other traits.

I've spent a lot of time looking at different Horned Hereford breeders web sites over the last couple of years and have been disappointed in what I find. I can find bulls that were born 10 to 20 years ago that I like, thick, long, big butted but some where that was lost after that. There are bulls being promoted today from some including some big time players that lack breed character. I'm going to step in it here but some of that breed character is differences between horned and polled Herefords. I imagine there is a bit of bang from crossing two different lines in the EPD numbers. Some prominent breed characteristics don't seem to be a concern today.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:05 pm

Allenw wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Andyva wrote:So, with old genetics, is it possible to get back past when the other stuff was added? Or does it matter? We went hereford angus hereford angus for a lot of years. The last couple hereford bulls we had on the place looked good, but they didn't throw good replacement cows, which was the only reason we had them in the first place. I crossed over to the dark side of the other red british breed to use in a rotating cross bred commercial herd. The shorthorn people embrace their mixed up crossbred cattle. It says right on the pedigree what percentage of what is in there. All the known defects can be tested for and carrier status is on there too. If it's 15/16ths it is a purebred, the way they have it figured. There is old stuff floating around, in ampules, from back in the sixties. You might get back far enough to where the stuff that we know about was mixed in, what was back beyond that? If you go back far enough, you will have some stubby little cattle, according to all the pictures I have seen. I don't believe there is any semen old enough to go back beyond the belt buckle cattle craze back in the 40s and 50s.


As a commercial breeder I would like to
see all breeds represented in an animsl and the percentage of each. Also any known genetic defects and whether they are a carrier or nit. Now they can test pisitive and it isn't listed. The only way a ciommercial breeder kniws is ge has to visit the AHA site and check to see if they are or not.
Another problem I see and dewder buyers mention is the lack if uniformity in the progeny of many Hereford sires. I also find that ut is an angus issue too. I feel there are many reason so many sires siee progeny that are very non uniform. One is many dires are the result of matings of teo totally fifferent types. As a commercial beeder I want to know a bull I purchase will sire calves that look alike and perform. That invludes type and color. That is the reason I'm looking at some linebred polled herds. The heifers we purchased this year are L1's and look like peas in a pod.


I agree breed purity is important. If the animal has papers it should be 100% that breed or duly noted on the papers, as well as free from known genetic defects.

Chasing high EPD numbers is the cool thing right now or it seems to me, the last bull my younger brother bought I thought was a heifer when I seen it in the pasture, but he has high milk numbers. Chasing high EPD numbers is no different then picking for any single trait at the expense of other traits.

I've spent a lot of time looking at different Horned Hereford breeders web sites over the last couple of years and have been disappointed in what I find. I can find bulls that were born 10 to 20 years ago that I like, thick, long, big butted but some where that was lost after that. There are bulls being promoted today from some including some big time players that lack breed character. I'm going to step in it here but some of that breed character is differences between horned and polled Herefords. I imagine there is a bit of bang from crossing two different lines in the EPD numbers. Some prominent breed characteristics don't seem to be a concern today.

+1
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:22 pm

farmguy wrote:"Andyva wrote:
I always figured that there was shorthorn added to knock the horns off and simmental to give them the pigment around the eyes. But I could be wrong.

No doubt about the Simmental. The effects of Titan are still being felt by commercial breeders. There is speculation about other breeds including Red Angus. The thing for certain is that there is some impurity. That can be verified by some of the issues that have been experienced. The same goes for Angus. As a commercial breeder I would like to see a test and the "other" breeds listed. This allows me to make better decisions in whether to use a bull and how to mate him if I do. IMO the Hereford association in the past has refused to aknowledge known impurities until an issue comes up like the Titan issue. And then they didn't fully address it. There are still grey calves showing up at times. It is like putting lipstick on a pig he is still a pig."

I don't know if the image will load, if it doesn't go to Hereford talk, purity thread, page 8 to view a picture. I am tired of this. Check elkwc posts on HT and here if you wish.

What are you tired of? Facts and the truth? It is obvious you are not one of the commercial breeders who has had to deal with issues that should of been addressed before they got that far. I'm tired of those that turn their head and ignore the facts.

Image
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Re: If old genitics

Postby MRRherefords » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:10 pm

elkwc wrote:
farmguy wrote:"Andyva wrote:
I always figured that there was shorthorn added to knock the horns off and simmental to give them the pigment around the eyes. But I could be wrong.

No doubt about the Simmental. The effects of Titan are still being felt by commercial breeders. There is speculation about other breeds including Red Angus. The thing for certain is that there is some impurity. That can be verified by some of the issues that have been experienced. The same goes for Angus. As a commercial breeder I would like to see a test and the "other" breeds listed. This allows me to make better decisions in whether to use a bull and how to mate him if I do. IMO the Hereford association in the past has refused to aknowledge known impurities until an issue comes up like the Titan issue. And then they didn't fully address it. There are still grey calves showing up at times. It is like putting lipstick on a pig he is still a pig."

I don't know if the image will load, if it doesn't go to Hereford talk, purity thread, page 8 to view a picture. I am tired of this. Check elkwc posts on HT and here if you wish.

What are you tired of? Facts and the truth? It is obvious you are not one of the commercial breeders who has had to deal with issues that should of been addressed before they got that far. I'm tired of those that turn their head and ignore the facts.

Image

:deadhorse:
I'm sorry I have to continue to hound this same point. I AM STILL WAITING TO SEE THESE 'FACTS'. Show me a copy of a test that can PROVE that these animals are impure and I'll be with everyone that is trying to eliminate 'Impure' animals. As of now this is all hearsay and opinion. I am sorry that you have had to deal with these "issues", but with all due respect if you dislike the Hereford breed that much, then you might want to consider jumping to a different breed whose "breed standards" you do agree with.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:30 pm

MRRherefords wrote:
elkwc wrote:
farmguy wrote:"Andyva wrote:
I always figured that there was shorthorn added to knock the horns off and simmental to give them the pigment around the eyes. But I could be wrong.

No doubt about the Simmental. The effects of Titan are still being felt by commercial breeders. There is speculation about other breeds including Red Angus. The thing for certain is that there is some impurity. That can be verified by some of the issues that have been experienced. The same goes for Angus. As a commercial breeder I would like to see a test and the "other" breeds listed. This allows me to make better decisions in whether to use a bull and how to mate him if I do. IMO the Hereford association in the past has refused to aknowledge known impurities until an issue comes up like the Titan issue. And then they didn't fully address it. There are still grey calves showing up at times. It is like putting lipstick on a pig he is still a pig."

I don't know if the image will load, if it doesn't go to Hereford talk, purity thread, page 8 to view a picture. I am tired of this. Check elkwc posts on HT and here if you wish.

What are you tired of? Facts and the truth? It is obvious you are not one of the commercial breeders who has had to deal with issues that should of been addressed before they got that far. I'm tired of those that turn their head and ignore the facts.

Image

:deadhorse:
I'm sorry I have to continue to hound this same point. I AM STILL WAITING TO SEE THESE 'FACTS'. Show me a copy of a test that can PROVE that these animals are impure and I'll be with everyone that is trying to eliminate 'Impure' animals. As of now this is all hearsay and opinion. I am sorry that you have had to deal with these "issues", but with all due respect if you dislike the Hereford breed that much, then you might want to consider jumping to a different breed whose "breed standards" you do agree with.

Are you saying Titan was pure and had no Simmental? The facts are there if you are open minded.
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True Grit Farms
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Re: If old genitics

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:49 pm

Image

This is the Hereford bull with the spotted gene. Where he picked it up who knows. We informed the breeder and the AHA, and the best we can tell is it's been pushed under the rug.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Muddy » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:10 pm

Yeah I remembered that True Grit Farm did had spotted calves out of that particular bull and he's not only person that had it happened.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby MRRherefords » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:21 pm

elkwc wrote:
MRRherefords wrote:
elkwc wrote:

:deadhorse:
I'm sorry I have to continue to hound this same point. I AM STILL WAITING TO SEE THESE 'FACTS'. Show me a copy of a test that can PROVE that these animals are impure and I'll be with everyone that is trying to eliminate 'Impure' animals. As of now this is all hearsay and opinion. I am sorry that you have had to deal with these "issues", but with all due respect if you dislike the Hereford breed that much, then you might want to consider jumping to a different breed whose "breed standards" you do agree with.

Are you saying Titan was pure and had no Simmental? The facts are there if you are open minded.

I don't know if he did or not. I am not extremely familiar with that particular situation, and am trying to learn more about it. I am not saying that you are wrong. I just want to see these facts you keep referring to before I jump on any bandwagons.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby MRRherefords » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:50 pm

OK. Did a bit more research. See a lot of people believe his mother had simi in her. Not enough proof to prove anything. However, if the Titan bull was 3/4 Hereford that means the bulls traced back to him today are 99.5+% Hereford. At what point is it far enough back? If you eliminate all bulls traced back to Titan including 4R you eliminate a good portion of the breed. At what point do you say that Titan bull never should have happened, but it did, so we are here 30-40 years after let's move on?
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:47 am

You still haven't done much research. Only after you have talked to people who were involved in that issues and several more during that time frame and hear their stories along with reading all the info you can gather on the internet and elsewhere do you get an idea of what happened and what the truth is. Then talk to the commercial breeders who were affected and the PB breeders who did the right thing. Some of the breeders that I had the honor of talking too have passed on. Most of the others are in their 70's and 80's and have raised Herefords since their youth and they were very active in the AHA at that time. So I feel they have the best idea of what happened and what really went on.
You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I saw your question to me on the other site. I feel after your posts here you are only asking for reasons similar to what the Liberal media does so don't expect an answer. Those wanting to know my decision for legitimate reasons can pm me.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby MRRherefords » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:14 am

elkwc wrote:You still haven't done much research. Only after you have talked to people who were involved in that issues and several more during that time frame and hear their stories along with reading all the info you can gather on the internet and elsewhere do you get an idea of what happened and what the truth is. Then talk to the commercial breeders who were affected and the PB breeders who did the right thing. Some of the breeders that I had the honor of talking too have passed on. Most of the others are in their 70's and 80's and have raised Herefords since their youth and they were very active in the AHA at that time. So I feel they have the best idea of what happened and what really went on.
You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I saw your question to me on the other site. I feel after your posts here you are only asking for reasons similar to what the Liberal media does so don't expect an answer. Those wanting to know my decision for legitimate reasons can pm me.

Honestly, you asked for opinions on the bulls pedigree and I gave them to you. IMO that is kind of the main point of these boards. You actually thanked me for the info as I was honestly trying to be helpful. Never saw a result so truly wanted to know what your decision was. Before you start comparing people to the liberal media, I would make sure what their intentions are. And mine was the fact that I honestly wanted to know your decision.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Andyva » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:11 am

I always liked herefords. I always thought a red cow bred to a black bull was a good way to go. Buy a red bull for every couple black ones and hold back a bunch of replacement heifers. I quit herefords. Hold back a bunch of heifers, and have to cull most of them by the time they are eight. Not worth it for the beating you take on the steers.

I'm probably stupid for keeping a heifer calf, but there is a fair amount of dairying around here, everybody seems to want to buy cull dairy cows and use them as nurse cows, and raise up a beef herd off of orphaned beef calves. Had a neighbor that bought a whole load of pretty lim/angus/charolais bred cows. He culled most of them within four years, all of them by six. Riddled with Johnes. I think I'll just keep doing it the way that Dad did it, and raise replacement heifers. But not with hereford.

I bought a shorthorn bull, thought it couldn't be no worse than hereford. Studied pedigrees a bit and shopped around. Didn't have to fight a bunch of people at a sale to get him. Most uniform, heaviest calves we have had on the place in decades. Heifers are making good cows, raising scale mashers right from the start. Except the one that had a calf when she was 15 monthsold, that one was a little puny, but she did breed back. So I don't think it is the showing that has hurt herefords, and I don't think it is impurities. I think it has to do with not being able to tell what you are getting by looking at the pedigree. Still take a little beating on red steers, but have noticed it is not as bad on the solid red ones as it is with the white faced ones. The white spots on the body, which has been rare, only showing up on some cows out of the neighbors simmental, don't do any worse than white faced ones.

What I saw as a problem, was that there for a while, big calves were a big problem with the hereford, and they tried to combat this with lower birthweights. Then they got cows that were small, had narrow hips, and still throw a huge calf every once in a while. Get one that can calf OK and she has a swingbag when she is four. I don't think it has anything to do with purity, or old or new genetics, it has to do with not breeding out bad traits. Or at least identifying what is throwing those traits, and keeping it out of the commercial world.

When we used hereford, we kept heifers out of a hereford bull for a couple years, shipped him and got a low birthweight angus bull. Then after two or three years, we would get an angus that had a little more moderate birthweight, and then got a hereford again a few years later. Worked in the seventies, early eighties, not so much in the nineties, and after the last one around 2005, herefords are going to need to change before I have another one. A hereford calf is a pretty thing, though, will miss that. I might AI one here and there, just to see a hereford calf. Most of the cows that look like a hereford anymore on the place are part simmental, though. If Titan 23d was part simmental, as a commercial guy, I don't see that as a bad thing, if it was the RIGHT simmental. Therein lies the problem.
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Re: If old genitics

Postby Btlrupert » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:00 pm

True Grit. That pedigree is is Trask and Felton. I saw a good many cattle at Trask back in the day who had black hair in the tails .. maybe a spot or two on a few heads .. as far the Felton side I have very little experience..
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Re: If old genitics

Postby elkwc » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:30 pm

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Last edited by elkwc on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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