A question for commercial guys.

Got a calving or breeding question? Get an answer.
gcreekrch
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:51 pm

A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:30 pm

Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........
0 x
Vaccinations, cheaper than whiskey. ;-)

Post Oak
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:17 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Post Oak » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 am

If it was a breeder who had been at it a long time using his own genetics and I had seen positive results from other people, I wouldn’t hesitate to use their genetics. There is a Hereford breeder in my state that uses his own genetics and a lot of commercial people use his bulls on their black cows. I like Ohlde bulls, but I don’t AI and don’t have enough money to buy one from Ohlde direct, so I buy bulls from a local breeder who has bulls AI sired by Ohlde bulls.
0 x
"Stretch your legs to suit your quilt. Very many of us are always busy stretching or shrinking ourselves to suit somebody's quilt besides our own."- John Donald Wade

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 6021
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:40 am

Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.
2 x
Make America Happy Again

gcreekrch
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:51 am

Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.



Isn't that is what's happening when hundreds are AIing to the latest bull of the year or very proven AI sires?

i have bought from a breeder for many years. A lot of his bulls have a hillbilly family tree pedigree but you can buy consistancy and unimformity.

My post refers to a catalog I recieved a couple of years ago. The seller had 30 bulls in it and they had 29 different sires. If I was wanting consistancy this wouldn't be a place for me to look as I prefer strings of 1/2 or 3/4 brothers to acchieve that.
0 x
Vaccinations, cheaper than whiskey. ;-)

User avatar
Randi
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:38 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Contact:

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Randi » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 am

gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........


That's a two edged sword IMO. Consistency is important, and if they are using their own genetics back in their herd, that shows that they are confident with their own cattle. However, at some point, I would want to add some different bloodlines into my own herd, which may not be happening if they are stuck using the same thing over and over.

OTOH, I don't think I'd have a lot of confidence buying from someone that doesn't seem to have a plan....breeding to many different AI sires.

I think that there should be some sort of happy medium. Using your own genetics, but not being afraid to introduce new genetics would give a much nicer offering, while still maintaining a lot of consistency. And as far as consistency goes....If I am looking for Terminal bulls, Maternal bulls, Heifer bulls....how much consistency should there be?
1 x

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 6021
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 am

gcreekrch wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.



Isn't that is what's happening when hundreds are AIing to the latest bull of the year or very proven AI sires?

i have bought from a breeder for many years. A lot of his bulls have a hillbilly family tree pedigree but you can buy consistancy and unimformity.

My post refers to a catalog I recieved a couple of years ago. The seller had 30 bulls in it and they had 29 different sires. If I was wanting consistancy this wouldn't be a place for me to look as I prefer strings of 1/2 or 3/4 brothers to acchieve that.


Understand.

Every catalog I get has those characteristics. Pedigree sells.

You made a point. The stud bulls are mostly bulls going back to the heralded Sires of a breed. That does diminish diversify.
0 x
Make America Happy Again

gcreekrch
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 am

Randi wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........


That's a two edged sword IMO. Consistency is important, and if they are using their own genetics back in their herd, that shows that they are confident with their own cattle. However, at some point, I would want to add some different bloodlines into my own herd, which may not be happening if they are stuck using the same thing over and over.

OTOH, I don't think I'd have a lot of confidence buying from someone that doesn't seem to have a plan....breeding to many different AI sires.

I think that there should be some sort of happy medium. Using your own genetics, but not being afraid to introduce new genetics would give a much nicer offering, while still maintaining a lot of consistency. And as far as consistency goes....If I am looking for Terminal bulls, Maternal bulls, Heifer bulls....how much consistency should there be?


I am with you on introducing the right new blood at times. Just not every time.

The heifer bulls I told you about came from a herd of 350 cows. When I asked for 70 lb birthweights in the bulls and also in their parents for some cowboy predictability they asked how mmany generations back as the herd has been in the family for over 50 years and the records were available.
1 x
Vaccinations, cheaper than whiskey. ;-)

Ebenezer
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 957
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Ebenezer » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:44 am

Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.

Not sure that this is all proven but based on theory. This one, especially:
However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

Sewell's experiment ran for, what, 20 years with a closed population? Most closed populations can be maintained by phenotypic selection once a base is established and the breeder recognizes the type he is going to get from those animals. The theory of population crash is over exaggerated and yet in the initial years I would expect 85% removal of potential lines in a linebreeding effort. Not total loss but recognization that a close population will not survive in that particular gene pool.

Natural populations allow death and environment to take out extremes. Nobody measures output on wild populations. Nobody controls wandering males in wild populations. Not a great parallel for me.

Good for a commercial breeder: the crossing of the most intensely linebred bred for specific purposes for the most hybrid vigor and the most potential profit. Look at your competitors: broilers, hogs, sheep. Maternal lines crossed over with terminal sires for all calves headed to slaughter. Beef folks still are on the "do all" model and losing ground because of it.

Just an opinion knowing that few will ever buckle down and breed their cattle for the long term good. Thanks.
0 x

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 6021
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:50 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.

Not sure that this is all proven but based on theory. This one, especially:
However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

Sewell's experiment ran for, what, 20 years with a closed population? Most closed populations can be maintained by phenotypic selection once a base is established and the breeder recognizes the type he is going to get from those animals. The theory of population crash is over exaggerated and yet in the initial years I would expect 85% removal of potential lines in a linebreeding effort. Not total loss but recognization that a close population will not survive in that particular gene pool.

Natural populations allow death and environment to take out extremes. Nobody measures output on wild populations. Nobody controls wandering males in wild populations. Not a great parallel for me.

Good for a commercial breeder: the crossing of the most intensely linebred bred for specific purposes for the most hybrid vigor and the most potential profit. Look at your competitors: broilers, hogs, sheep. Maternal lines crossed over with terminal sires for all calves headed to slaughter. Beef folks still are on the "do all" model and losing ground because of it.

Just an opinion knowing that few will ever buckle down and breed their cattle for the long term good. Thanks.


Yes sir. The comparison of natural populations with breeding domestic populations presents some difficulties.

Your last sentence is a real truth. My comment on it is: that the freedom to pursue cattle breeding how ever you want is more important than the merit of prescribed breeding methods.
0 x
Make America Happy Again

User avatar
Nesikep
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 13041
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Lillooet, BC, Canada

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Nesikep » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:15 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.


But in nature bulls don't travel across the continent.. So what you have is many groups of similar individuals (linebred) but variation between groups (the diversity).. If one group gets weak, outside genetics will come in naturally.

While long term is to be seen, I'm really happy with the calves of my own bull right now... I don't plan on completely closing the herd, but have been finding that it's harder and harder to find a bull that doesn't bring me backward somewhere... Oh, and I think it's good to know the history, phenotype, etc off the 5 previous generations, in the actual production environment..
1 x
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
-Christopher Hitchens

wbvs58
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:45 am
Location: S.E. Queensland, Australia

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby wbvs58 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:41 pm

My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken
1 x

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 15096
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: heart of dixie

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby ALACOWMAN » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:02 pm

gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

You know it's fifty- fifty contribution from each parent... There's Bulls out there that look like they contribute 80 % to the calf,, I like using those close knit type from the producer...
2 x
there are two ways to argue with a woman.....neither one works..

User avatar
Caustic Burno
Crusty
Crusty
Posts: 22425
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Big Thicket East Texas

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Caustic Burno » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:12 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

You know it's fifty- fifty contribution from each parent... There's Bulls out there that look like they contribute 80 % to the calf,, I like using those close knit type from the producer...


I want to shop where I get to see the sires progeny in the pasture not a catalog. Not that I am anti AI I just don’t keep up with all the numbers and research that goes into it.
3 x

gcreekrch
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 pm

wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.
Last edited by gcreekrch on Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Vaccinations, cheaper than whiskey. ;-)

gcreekrch
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:21 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

You know it's fifty- fifty contribution from each parent... There's Bulls out there that look like they contribute 80 % to the calf,, I like using those close knit type from the producer...


I want to shop where I get to see the sires progeny in the pasture not a catalog. Not that I am anti AI I just don’t keep up with all the numbers and research that goes into it.


If I may quote a friend of mine....... "Give a cowman a bulls age, bw and current weight and he will know if the bull is worth pursuing."

IMO, EPDs are only as accurate as the numbers entered in the computer.
3 x
Vaccinations, cheaper than whiskey. ;-)


Return to “Breeding / Calving Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest