My new Wagyu bull

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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gaurus
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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by gaurus » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:01 pm

NonTypicalCPA wrote:I’m hoping that the shortcomings of the wagyu breed will be offset by the combination of the beltie breed and heterosis. It will be an educational experience either way.


The Shortcomings of Wagyu and any dairy looking cattle(like Loghorns, not dairy but scrawny looking) can only be offset by powerful continental breeds like Charolais or Limousins. You are not going to get much if any out of the wagyou/beltie cross


NonTypicalCPA wrote:My bull is full blood. He started life as a $1,300 embryo transfer. Here is some info and on his sire.

Sire: Hirashigetayasu 001, has amongst the highest EBVs for growth and milk from the predominantly Kedaka bloodline. An official Japanese progeny test showed that at least 80 percent of his steers would gain A5 grade, the highest given to carcasses in Japan.


This right here is where the $$$$, thanks for the info



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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by gaurus » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:06 am

Some more info on the Limousine/Jersey cross(called BeefBuilders), which is basically what I am advising, Massive continental line crossed to a exceptionally marbling line and while Wagyu and Jersey are different breeds, they have very simmilar traits, like they just don't put on muscles and they both marble very very good(tender and low melting point IMF)

https://www.agweb.com/article/beef-gene ... t-bechtel/

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Cdcollett » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:33 am

gaurus wrote:Some more info on the Limousine/Jersey cross(called BeefBuilders), which is basically what I am advising, Massive continental line crossed to a exceptionally marbling line and while Wagyu and Jersey are different breeds, they have very simmilar traits, like they just don't put on muscles and they both marble very very good(tender and low melting point IMF)

https://www.agweb.com/article/beef-gene ... t-bechtel/

Great information. I wonder if Dairies would benefit more by going one round of sexed semen for replacements and then just letting live beef bulls do the work after that. Most beef bulls are no where near as hard to handle as a jersey bull which is why many don’t want them around.

Also, does anyone have access to performance tables like that link has on the Jersey vs Jersey cross but with the Waygu vs the waygu cross vs the straight angus or other breed?

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by gaurus » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:28 pm

Cdcollett wrote:I wonder if Dairies would benefit more by going one round of sexed semen for replacements and then just letting live beef bulls do the work after that. Most beef bulls are no where near as hard to handle as a jersey bull which is why many don’t want them around.
Most Dairies today use sexed semen for replacement on Top Top performer cows, the trend now is to use AI on mid-bottom performers and sell day old feeders, what some companies like wulf are doing is using specialized bulls(Top dollar metrics and hide color) like a Limflex(at least 75% Limousin and homozygous for black hide), they purchase the feeders from the dairies as soon as possible and send them to calf ranches. strait Jersey bull calves are basically worthless, the F1s of this cross earn top dollars.

I would like to point out that I am using the previous example as reference of what a cross of a scrawny looking breed may look or perform if crossed with a powerful terminal line, not that Wagyus are a dairy breed, in the case for the OP since the scrawny looking breed in this case is a Wagyu bull and not cows(Wagyu cows are very expensive, rare in the market hens' teeth and 95% of the time are used to produce more Wagyus), the guys in the know how have been using good milking simmental/fleckvieh cows.

Cdcollett wrote:Also, does anyone have access to performance tables like that link has on the Jersey vs Jersey cross but with the Waygu vs the waygu cross vs the straight angus or other breed?


You will not find many if any on that type of cross for a few reasons which are not entirely economic in nature, First in the Japanese market they cross Wagyu with Holstein about 99% of the time, the Japanese will favor that cross over any other cross including the mythical Angus, In Australia they prefer the Wagyu/Angus cross instead because the marbling is very close to it(lower than Wagyu/Holstein cross) but produces way more beef all of them stay at the F1s as that what Japanese requests, now for the rest of the world including the U.S.A people get top dollar for Prime and Choice so the other half of the equation/cross does not need to be a marbling breed and a good milking continental herd of cows will do just fine(perhaps not as productive or efficient as Terminal sire x small efficient small marbling cows)



In Japan when managed like regular Wagyu, these F1s(Wagyu/Holstein) Will grade up to A4 and pure Holstein will grade up to B2, when F1s are managed in Australia you don't see that kind of marbling,

here a few shots of the A5, A4 and B2 carcass from Japan
http://www.tokyourbankitchen.com/japane ... gyu-japan/

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Stickney94 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:56 am

Sorry to reply to an old thread -- but for those interested -- Our tiny operation began crossing Wagyu with full-blood Angus in 2016. We harvested our first calves (born in 2017) this past Jan/Feb. They were 21-22 months of age. In this case our first crop were all heifers. Two were out of Hoover Dam daughters and one was from a large framed commercial cow (she's easily 1700 lbs).

The two F1s from the Hoover Dam daughters were slaughtered at 1,376 and 1,386 lbs. A discerning cattleperson would probably have have been able to pick them out in their peer group, but it would have been more difficult than you might guess. The HD influence greatly improved their rump silhoutte. They had just a bit less rib and depth. And their leg bone was just a hair thinner than others.

The 3rd F1 from the large commercial cow was from birth tiny and always lagged behind in size/muscle etc. By slaughter she was at least fat and weighed 1,215 lbs.

With that said, we pride ourselves on raising high quality beef for direct to consumer buyers. So was the Wagyu cross leaps and bounds better? No, not exactly. But as my brother said, that's because your angus beef is already so good. The wagyu cross has some really interesting buttery qualities. Our customers have liked it very much and are willing to pay a premium for it.

The interesting thing from my perspective -- the 3rd F1 that was always runty and small -- yeah, noticeably the best tasting animal of the 3 crosses. Hands down.

This next year we are creating a pen of the smaller crosses and shooting for later slaughter (24-26 months) just to see if that changes anything. Fullblood wagyu often get harvested at 30+months.

Again, sorry for resurrecting an old thread.

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Gators Rule » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:54 pm

Stickney94 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:56 am
Sorry to reply to an old thread -- but for those interested -- Our tiny operation began crossing Wagyu with full-blood Angus in 2016. We harvested our first calves (born in 2017) this past Jan/Feb. They were 21-22 months of age. In this case our first crop were all heifers. Two were out of Hoover Dam daughters and one was from a large framed commercial cow (she's easily 1700 lbs).

The two F1s from the Hoover Dam daughters were slaughtered at 1,376 and 1,386 lbs. A discerning cattleperson would probably have have been able to pick them out in their peer group, but it would have been more difficult than you might guess. The HD influence greatly improved their rump silhoutte. They had just a bit less rib and depth. And their leg bone was just a hair thinner than others.

The 3rd F1 from the large commercial cow was from birth tiny and always lagged behind in size/muscle etc. By slaughter she was at least fat and weighed 1,215 lbs.

With that said, we pride ourselves on raising high quality beef for direct to consumer buyers. So was the Wagyu cross leaps and bounds better? No, not exactly. But as my brother said, that's because your angus beef is already so good. The wagyu cross has some really interesting buttery qualities. Our customers have liked it very much and are willing to pay a premium for it.

The interesting thing from my perspective -- the 3rd F1 that was always runty and small -- yeah, noticeably the best tasting animal of the 3 crosses. Hands down.

This next year we are creating a pen of the smaller crosses and shooting for later slaughter (24-26 months) just to see if that changes anything. Fullblood wagyu often get harvested at 30+months.

Again, sorry for resurrecting an old thread.
Never apologize for providing interesting and useful information!

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Son of Butch » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:51 pm

Stickney94 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:56 am
The interesting thing from my perspective -- the 3rd F1 that was always runty and small -- yeah,
noticeably the best tasting animal of the 3 crosses. Hands down.
LOL
Interesting and funny in that from my limited experience with Wagyu there seems to be a strong correlation between the one that looks worst on the hoof is the one that looks best on the rail.

For me that takes some getting use to and I've noticed the sires that look the most like drowned rats seem to rank the highest for marbling and tenderness. :)

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:45 pm

Ugly = better --- More "breed characteristics" being passed on to offspring???
Do you grass finish? is that why they are older?
And I always wondered if the cost of the Wagyu was going to give you enough improvement to justify using them - if you already are providing a quality product to your customers. If you can get a premium, that is all that matters.
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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Stickney94 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:07 pm

Jeanne -- honestly you might be summing up the genetic influence quite succinctly. We have several more this year that share the "ugly" phenotype. It will be interesting to see if the next group's carcasses perform similarly. I also have two steers out of Hoover Dam daughters that are F1 Wagyu and they look pretty comparable to some purebred Hoover Dam steers in the same pen.

Is the premium worth it? Time will tell. If we would have had to find and buy a quality Wagyu bull we likely wouldn't have tried the experiment. But, ABS/OriGen/SelectSires -- all have Wagyu semen, so that made the decision simpler and less risky.

If you do opt for Wagyu, I'd recommend buying a jersey cow or two. They make the Wagyus look thick by comparison, haha. (My daughter's first 4H calves were twin Jersey heifers. She implored me to keep them. Turns out they are fertile and they apparently have a taste for Canadien thistle, so they remain brown eyesores in our otherwise black herd :-)

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Son of Butch » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:07 am

Stickney94 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:07 pm
If you do opt for Wagyu, I'd recommend buying a jersey cow or two.
They make the Wagyus look thick by comparison, haha.
There you go, good thinking. :)

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Stocker Steve » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:45 am

[quote=Stickney94
With that said, we pride ourselves on raising high quality beef for direct to consumer buyers. So was the Wagyu cross leaps and bounds better? No, not exactly. But as my brother said, that's because your angus beef is already so good. The wagyu cross has some really interesting buttery qualities. Our customers have liked it very much and are willing to pay a premium for it.

The interesting thing from my perspective -- the 3rd F1 that was always runty and small -- yeah, noticeably the best tasting animal of the 3 crosses. Hands down.
[/quote]

How much of a premium do you need to get to cover the increased cost of producing a Wagyu F1 ?
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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Son of Butch » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:42 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:45 pm
Ugly = better --- More "breed characteristics" being passed on to offspring???
The results of 1 DNA study of crossbred cattle has always stuck with me.
It found that an individual always favors 1 of their 4 grandparents more than the other 3.
It's never a perfect mix of 25% - 25% - 25% - 25% dna as some expected, instead 1 grandparent
dominates the mix even if it's only by 1 or 2%.

I assume different breeds ie angus, brahman, charolais, hereford makes grandparent dna
easier to identify... (but that's above my pay grade)

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Dave » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:22 pm

Neighbor B has about 150 Wagyu cows. The BLM allotments are shared allotments with multiple ranchers have cattle run in common on those allotments. So Tuesday I was at a branding. Neighbor B told neighbor C that he was going to put a bunch of Wagyu cows out on the allotment which they share. Neighbor C looked got a scared look on his face. He asked, "you aren't turning out a Wagyu bull are you?" Neighbor B paused for effect before saying no these are fall calving cows. Neighbor C looked relieved. He jokingly told neighbor A that he would turn the Wagyu bull out on an allotment that they share. Neighbor A got kind of serious and said two can play that game, his FIL has some ugly Brahma cross bulls that he could turn out. B told A that he would give him a 20 cent premium on an cross calves. A said it better be more like 50 cents to make up the difference in weaning weight. Everyone does try to keep good bulls because your bull will breed some of the neighbors cows and the neighbors bull will darn sure breed some of your cows.
B must be doing good on his Wagyu cows or he wouldn't keep them. He is in his mid 40's and started with nothing. He now runs about 900 cows. This isn't a hobby. But I do notice that the spring calfers go to irrigated pasture for the summer and not out on the rangeland. But everyone (me and B included) who has had to work with the Wagyu cows comments on how stupid they are. Along with the earlier comments here about the lack of SC in the bulls, it is difficult to tell between a dry cow and a wet one. They don't have much udder.

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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:26 pm

Yes, I was referring to the price because you have to offset the lack of product.
When I asked, I was thinking you probably used semen - less risky experiment.
I guess I'm just a snob about my cattle. I have to like LOOKING at them. I have a lot of pride in what they LOOK like. Same with my dogs. Sorry, no ugly adopted pets around here. LOL
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Re: My new Wagyu bull

Post by Stocker Steve » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:41 pm

Lots of threads in here on how great Jersey beef is. Not my favorite, but if you are after tender with lots and lots of marbling wouldn't Jersey be cheaper than buying into Wagyu?
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