Let's Bicker

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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TennesseeTuxedo
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:12 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Lol. You are good at using other people's lines. Just like you stole the term "booger eater" from fat man.


Ron, I'm a purest, I appreciate the breeds in their intended colorations not all painted black in an effort to chase Angus dollars.


You don't understand. Give me a call. I will explain it to you. It is much more than changing color. Jeanne knows. Maybe she has more patience with you than I do.


Not calling and as Clark Gable so aptly once said "Frankly, I don't give..."
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby WalnutCrest » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:37 pm

No bickering here ...

I have two ampules on an old simmental bull from the 1970s in my tank.

They are free to any CT member on the condition I get to see pictures of the calves.
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dun
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby dun » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:43 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:No bickering here ...

I have two ampules on an old simmental bull from the 1970s in my tank.

They are free to any CT member on the condition I get to see pictures of the calves.

What bull?
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby JWBrahman » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:20 am

Bright Raven wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:
You got a link to back that claim up about binomial nomenclature?

It's called binomial for a reason.


Yep. Binomial nomenclature was fundamental to biology until the molecular age. My son who his PhD in molecular biology, cancer cell study, says they pay little attention to taxonomy today. They are doing everything at the molecular level.

YES. I used the following reference:

Wilson, D.E.; Reeder, D.M., eds. (2005). "Bos taurus". Mammal Species of the World: A Taxonomic and Geographic Reference (3rd ed.). Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-0-8018-8221-0. OCLC 62265494

Excerpt:

Cattle were originally identified as three separate species: Bos taurus, the European or "taurine" cattle (including similar types from Africa and Asia); Bos indicus, the zebu; and the extinct Bos primigenius, the aurochs. The aurochs is ancestral to both zebu and taurine cattle. These have been reclassified as one species, Bos taurus, with three subspecies: Bos taurus primigenius, Bos taurus indicus, and Bos taurus taurus.

Edited to add: The animal science folks are probably unaware of the change ( not intended to be an insult because they don't deal in the pure biological sciences) but because of that most animal science folks are going to follow the preclassification taxonomy.


Unless it's adopted as a standard usage by everyone it's just one man's book. Every university program still uses the standard Bos taurus and Bos indicus.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second since I have a degree in plant and soil systems:
What this guy is doing is lazy. He is trying to squeeze natural varieties and cultivated varieties into something called sub species. These designations have been used and universally accepted within binomial nomenclature for decades. I doubt a Botanist will ever start using three terms without the cv or var suffix.

Every generation thinks it is more clever than the last. Time and experience usually prove otherwise.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby andybob » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:38 am

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:47 am

JWBrahman wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:It's called binomial for a reason.


Yep. Binomial nomenclature was fundamental to biology until the molecular age. My son who his PhD in molecular biology, cancer cell study, says they pay little attention to taxonomy today. They are doing everything at the molecular level.

YES. I used the following reference:

Wilson, D.E.; Reeder, D.M., eds. (2005). "Bos taurus". Mammal Species of the World: A Taxonomic and Geographic Reference (3rd ed.). Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-0-8018-8221-0. OCLC 62265494

Excerpt:

Cattle were originally identified as three separate species: Bos taurus, the European or "taurine" cattle (including similar types from Africa and Asia); Bos indicus, the zebu; and the extinct Bos primigenius, the aurochs. The aurochs is ancestral to both zebu and taurine cattle. These have been reclassified as one species, Bos taurus, with three subspecies: Bos taurus primigenius, Bos taurus indicus, and Bos taurus taurus.

Edited to add: The animal science folks are probably unaware of the change ( not intended to be an insult because they don't deal in the pure biological sciences) but because of that most animal science folks are going to follow the preclassification taxonomy.


Unless it's adopted as a standard usage by everyone it's just one man's book.


In Zoology, it is the standard. It has been adopted by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature.

If you read my post, (check what I underlined) I mentioned that Animal Science is not using the term.

John, pure Biological Science has a stuffy relationship with Animal Science. In Universities the Biological Sciences at one time looked down their noses at the Animal Sciences.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby JWBrahman » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:41 am

Lol, academia suffers from turf battles and specializations that don't translate into real world experience.

The reason my F1 Brangus grow faster than a Bos taurus is the dissimilar alleles. If Bos indicus was just a sub species of Bos taurus we would never get the improved health, vigor, and longevity from that breeding.

I do agree that medical doctors suffer from an unfounded arrogance and plain ole know-it-allisms. Of course all cattle are pretty similar. They can breed to each other without producing sterile offspring. They have the same numbers of chromosomal pairs. That doesn't mean that they are all taurus.

Anyway, interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:49 am

JWBrahman wrote:Lol, academia suffers from turf battles and specializations that don't translate into real world experience.

The reason my F1 Brangus grow faster than a Bos taurus is the dissimilar alleles. If Bos indicus was just a sub species of Bos taurus we would never get the improved health, vigor, and longevity from that breeding.

I do agree that medical doctors suffer from an unfounded arrogance and plain ole know-it-allisms. Of course all cattle are pretty similar. They can breed to each other without producing sterile offspring. They have the same numbers of chromosomal pairs. That doesn't mean that they are all taurus.

Anyway, interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.


John,

The sciences are colorful. There were two vertebrate paleontologists who literally had a fist fight at a convention over the naming of new fossil species.

BTW: I didn't know your emphasis was in plant science. You know this but the binomial nomenclature between animals and plants is a little different. Carl von Linnaeus set the ground work for the system but things have changed:

The application of binomial nomenclature is now governed by various internationally agreed codes of rules, of which the two most important are the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN) for animals and the International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants (ICN). Although the general principles underlying binomial nomenclature are common to these two codes, there are some differences, both in the terminology they use and in their precise rules.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby cowgirl8 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:21 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I, personally, LOVED all the color patterns. It was like opening Christmas presents, every time a calf was born. Is it a heifer or a bull, is it red or black, does it have spots or not, does it have a white face or not, is it horned or polled? (most of those things still make finding a newborn exciting!!!).

Exactly....It was like finding that special easter egg when a new sim calf was born.. Really miss all the colorfully marked calves. Our large herd of sim angus cows had a 99% black calf crop. I had one red w/f.. We did though add some black Hereford in another herd and got a lot of white faces. We'll keep all the best heifers in that pasture to add some white faces to our future cows.
We were driving around looking at our cows, putting out mineral yesterday. One thing I realized is, the past 10 years of mixing in angus, we've greatly improved our cows udders. Once upon a time, it was a deal for me. Big stupid sim calves and low giant udders....I called it. BCLU syndrome...Its now just a distant memory. Selection and breeding, we have hundreds of perfect udders we didn't have in the 90s...
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:25 am

cowgirl8 wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I, personally, LOVED all the color patterns. It was like opening Christmas presents, every time a calf was born. Is it a heifer or a bull, is it red or black, does it have spots or not, does it have a white face or not, is it horned or polled? (most of those things still make finding a newborn exciting!!!).

Exactly....It was like finding that special easter egg when a new sim calf was born.. Really miss all the colorfully marked calves. Our large herd of sim angus cows had a 99% black calf crop. I had one red w/f.. We did though add some black Hereford in another herd and got a lot of white faces. We'll keep all the best heifers in that pasture to add some white faces to our future cows.
We were driving around looking at our cows, putting out mineral yesterday. One thing I realized is, the past 10 years of mixing in angus, we've greatly improved our cows udders. Once upon a time, it was a deal for me. Big stupid sim calves and low giant udders....I called it. BCLU syndrome...Its now just a distant memory. Selection and breeding, we have hundreds of perfect udders we didn't have in the 90s...


A great cow otherwise, actually great pedigree (she is a Hudson Pine/Rocking P) has one of those low slung udders. Halfblood
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:56 am

andybob wrote:Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
Image


Hi Andy. I will take that calf! Beautiful
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Muddy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:19 am

andybob wrote:Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
Image

Are they available in United States?
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am

Bright Raven wrote:
andybob wrote:Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
Image


Hi Andy. I will take that calf! Beautiful


Neat calf, thumbs up!
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby andybob » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:53 am

Muddy wrote:
andybob wrote:Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
Image

Are they available in United States?

No Nguni in the USA but some serious interest in importing some, the Mashona is closely related, but only solid coloured Mashona were imported, the Nguni have no solid herds at present, and few polled;
Image
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Muddy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:05 pm

andybob wrote:
Muddy wrote:
andybob wrote:Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
Image

Are they available in United States?

No Nguni in the USA but some serious interest in importing some, the Mashona is closely related, but only solid coloured Mashona were imported, the Nguni have no solid herds at present, and few polled;
Image

What sanga breeds do we have in United States, beside Watusi and Mashona?
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