Cross bred bulls

O.k.

Thought I might try to stir it up a little.

The following is obviously for commercial cattle people

I think everyone is agreed upon the fact that crossbred cows are the most productive cows. F-1's, black baldies, tiger stripes, etc. It is generally accepted that this is due to hybrid vigor. With that in mind, why wouldn't a crossbred bull be a desirable bull to have? Crossbred bulls on F-1's could potentially give you a 4 way cross in the first generation. I'm not talking about a mutt bred from who knows what, but well bred, phenotypically correct bulls.

I realize that crossbreds are not in the seedstock supplier's best interest, but anyone have comments concerning this??? Please list your pro's and con's with reasoning for such.

I'll start it off by saying the first con could possibly be the lack of uniformity of a calf crop.

If you think about it a lot of recognized breeds today are already a cross. But say if you had a angus x hereford bull on angus x hereford cows (or some other breed) you would have 2 cross parents but the calves would still be 1/2 angus x 1/2 hereford. In this example you should have pretty uniform calves. I think there are many paths to the same destination.

cypressfarms":377h51qt said:

O.k.

Thought I might try to stir it up a little.

The following is obviously for commercial cattle people

I think everyone is agreed upon the fact that crossbred cows are the most productive cows. F-1's, black baldies, tiger stripes, etc. It is generally accepted that this is due to hybrid vigor. With that in mind, why wouldn't a crossbred bull be a desirable bull to have? Crossbred bulls on F-1's could potentially give you a 4 way cross in the first generation. I'm not talking about a mutt bred from who knows what, but well bred, phenotypically correct bulls.

I realize that crossbreds are not in the seedstock supplier's best interest, but anyone have comments concerning this??? Please list your pro's and con's with reasoning for such.

I'll start

• it off by saying the first con could possibly be the lack of uniformity of a calf crop

.

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Thats the problem that i would have with a 4 way cross is uniform calves. and thats whats its all about

ALACOWMAN":3l9rnobk said:

Thats the problem that i would have with a 4 way cross is uniform calves. and thats whats its all about

Click to expand...

You would get more pounds of calf, if the F-1 cow's had the milk, from a 4 way cross.

Maybe a bull that's 1/2 simi, 1/2 angus crossed with a cow that's 1/2 brahman 1/2 hereford. This would most likely yield all black baldy calves, maybe motley face calves. This is assuming that the simi would be black.

cypressfarms":1dcm6zl9 said:

O.k.

Thought I might try to stir it up a little.

The following is obviously for commercial cattle people

I think everyone is agreed upon the fact that crossbred cows are the most productive cows. F-1's, black baldies, tiger stripes, etc. It is generally accepted that this is due to hybrid vigor. With that in mind, why wouldn't a crossbred bull be a desirable bull to have? Crossbred bulls on F-1's could potentially give you a 4 way cross in the first generation. I'm not talking about a mutt bred from who knows what, but well bred, phenotypically correct bulls.

I realize that crossbreds are not in the seedstock supplier's best interest, but anyone have comments concerning this??? Please list your pro's and con's with reasoning for such.

I'll start it off by saying the first con could possibly be the lack of uniformity of a calf crop.

Click to expand...

Actually seedstock producers would make MORE money off of this. Most commercial guys buy a bull every three to five years per thirty cows. IF they also had to buy the F1 heifers the seedstock operation's business model would be much more profitable. The problem with this system is the complexity and the discipline involved. Lets say your maternal cross was Angus x Hereford and your paternal cross was Black Simmental x Limousin. For this too work somewhere there has to be your 4way cross herd, a herd of Angus cows being bred to Hereford bulls, a herd of Limousin cows being bred to Simmental bulls, AND a herd of Limousins being bred straight Limousin, AND a herd of Anguses being bred straight Angus too produce the females for the multiplier farm.....plus you need a Hereford bull and/or semen source and a Simmental bull and/or semen source You can do this; but you need to really coordinate this with your seedstock suppliers. You CAN simplify this with composites, F1s x F1s bred like a pure breed ,but you would lose SOME heterosis effects. What invariably happens in roto-terminal or terminal crossbreeding systems is that the commercial cattleman gets tired of writing that big check to the seedstock guy for the heifers and he keeps back a set of his terminal heifers and the whole thing leads to mongrelization.

cypressfarms":7tmdr3t2 said:

ALACOWMAN":7tmdr3t2 said:

Thats the problem that i would have with a 4 way cross is uniform calves. and thats whats its all about

Click to expand...

You would get more pounds of calf, if the F-1 cow's had the milk, from a 4 way cross.

Maybe a bull that's 1/2 simi, 1/2 angus crossed with a cow that's 1/2 brahman 1/2 hereford. This would most likely yield all black baldy calves, maybe motley face calves. This is assuming that the simi would be black.

Click to expand...

The calves would not necessarily be heavier. Heterosis adds pounds, but the growth genetics still have to be there.

As for the color you only have a 50-50 shot of a white face and the bull would have to be homo black to keep them all black.

sidney411":37sno206 said:

I think there are many paths to the same destination.

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this sounds vaguely familiar.

jnowack":1a97ooa3 said:

The calves would not necessarily be heavier. Heterosis adds pounds, but the growth genetics still have to be there.

As for the color you only have a 50-50 shot of a white face and the bull would have to be homo black to keep them all black.

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All other things being equal, two breeds crossed will result in heavier, more growthy, longer lived, more fertile cattle.

The example I gave was assuming the simi was black crossed with a black angus. This crossed with a tigerstripe (hereford x brahman) would in all likelihood yield black baldies.

There is an abundance of first cross F-1's around here. Tigerstripes are especially plentiful.

whats wrong with a nice three way cross?

or how about a Tigerstripe crossed with BrahmanxShorthorn. oh wait...

Consider most of the cowherds in the southeast. They are made up of 20 to 50 cows and they are made up from Hines 57 breeds. A pure bred or even a line bred would give at least some uniformity.
Now a well-bred herd of f1s might do well with a crossbred bull. But there ain't many well bred cow calf herds in Alabama.

cypressfarms":1vkyr6kq said:

jnowack":1vkyr6kq said:

The calves would not necessarily be heavier. Heterosis adds pounds, but the growth genetics still have to be there.

As for the color you only have a 50-50 shot of a white face and the bull would have to be homo black to keep them all black.

Click to expand...

All other things being equal, two breeds crossed will result in heavier, more growthy, longer lived, more fertile cattle.

The example I gave was assuming the simi was black crossed with a black angus. This crossed with a tigerstripe (hereford x brahman) would in all likelihood yield black baldies.

There is an abundance of first cross F-1's around here. Tigerstripes are especially plentiful.

Click to expand...

like brandon said to control consistency you would have to have to many irons in the fire. even if they did add a few more pounds. pounds is what the rancher wants. a group of uniform calve's is what the buyer's want not heavier calves

Here is an article on crossbreeding

Most commercial cattle use crossbred cattle or at least produce crossbred calves. The question is do you know why you are producing crossbred calves. The main purpose of using a crossbreeding program is to increase our economic returns. However, if crossbreeding is used incorrectly it could do more harm than good.
There are basically two ways in which crossbreeding can increase the productivity of your herd. The first way is by combining the desirable characteristics of two or more breeds. This will allow for higher overall performance of desired traits among the crossbred animals than would be found within a given breed. This is where one breed's strong points will often cover up another breed's weak points. The second way crossbreeding increases performance is through heterosis. Increased heterosis can be exhibited by both the crossbred calf and crossbred cow.
Heterosis is the difference in performance of the crossbred animals from the average performance of the purebred animals of the breeds involved in the cross. In real life the producer should focus on how much the crossbred will outperform the highest producing purebred. Most crossbreeds will exhibit some heterosis; however their performance for every trait may not exceed that of the best purebred.
The effects of crossbreeding are the complete opposite of the genetic effects of inbreeding. Inbreeding tends to depress certain traits where crossbreeding, due to heterosis, will enhance performance in certain areas. Crossbreeding tends to enhance reproductive traits, increases calf viability, rate of gain, and most of all hybrid vigor in the calves.
The level of heterosis expressed by a trait depends greatly on the genetic diversity of the two parental breeds. Genetic diversity refers to how much similarity exists genetically between the two breeds. Breeds from the same region such as British breed cattle (Angus, Shorthorn, and Hereford) will have less genetic diversity than will breeds from different regions like British and continental cattle. Also cattle that have been selected for similar purposes will have less genetic diversity than will cattle selected for different traits. Simmental and Gelbvieh cattle both have good milk production ability,
therefore there will be less diversity among those breeds than there would be between Simmental selected for milk production and Angus selected for birth weights.
Is it possible to use too much crossbreeding? Absolutely, in order to fully utilize the effects of heterosis the best bet is to maintain breeds or lines of beef cattle and crossing them. The next key is to find out

what crosses will work best for different regions, and different needs.
Because of the increased level of heterosis in crossbred individuals, inter-mating among crossbreds will result in increased genetic variation. This will result in crossbred populations not breeding true, in other words a lot more variation. The result of breeding crossbred individuals is a regression toward the average performance of the original purebred parents. In order to fully utilize increased heterosis, it is necessary to remake the crosses among purebreds each generation.
This is not to say that you can't utilize heterosis in your cowherd. As mentioned earlier, heterosis can increase the productivity of your mama cows. By breeding crossbreds to crossbreds you risk the loss of uniformity in your calf crop.
By properly utilizing crossbreeding the producer has the opportunity of increasing total beef production on a per cow basis. Don't think however that by crossbreeding you will cure all of your problems. You will still need to practice good management; you will be required to improve your management as cows may become more productive. It is also important to realize that crossbreeding is not a cure all.
An important factor to remember rather you are using purebred cattle or crossbreeding is to always use superior breeding stock, which will produce calves better than the average. If you have a successful breeding program, your calves should outperform their parents.

I can't believe the discussion of crossbred bulls is popping up again..
ohh and sorry if the previous post is long but i think it has some good info in it.
What it boils down to when using crossbred bulls (and sorry guys, but Balancer and SimAngus bulls are crossbred bulls) is that you get too much genetic variation.

i believe as for as pounds go i can take a strait simmental bull on F1 tigers and raise as heavy if not heavier calf than with a simm/angus and with a simbrah F1 cow with a with a herf bull or simm i could warp the scales. but that extra 50-75 pounds might not help much across the board

cypressfarms":m55lj8ig said:

jnowack":m55lj8ig said:

The calves would not necessarily be heavier. Heterosis adds pounds, but the growth genetics still have to be there.

As for the color you only have a 50-50 shot of a white face and the bull would have to be homo black to keep them all black.

Click to expand...

All other things being equal, two breeds crossed will result in heavier, more growthy, longer lived, more fertile cattle.

The example I gave was assuming the simi was black crossed with a black angus. This crossed with a tigerstripe (hereford x brahman) would in all likelihood yield black baldies.

There is an abundance of first cross F-1's around here. Tigerstripes are especially plentiful.

Click to expand...

Those tiger stripe cows only have one copy of the dominant white faced gene from the hereford. When bred to a solid black bull you have a 50-50 shot of her passing that gene on. You will NOT get ALL baldy calves. It is basic genetics.
The f1 tiger stripe also carries a copy of the red gene so if bred to a red carrier black bull you get a 25% chance of a red calf.

jnowack":1xypykbt said:

cypressfarms":1xypykbt said:

jnowack":1xypykbt said:

The calves would not necessarily be heavier. Heterosis adds pounds, but the growth genetics still have to be there.

As for the color you only have a 50-50 shot of a white face and the bull would have to be homo black to keep them all black.

Click to expand...

All other things being equal, two breeds crossed will result in heavier, more growthy, longer lived, more fertile cattle.

The example I gave was assuming the simi was black crossed with a black angus. This crossed with a tigerstripe (hereford x brahman) would in all likelihood yield black baldies.

There is an abundance of first cross F-1's around here. Tigerstripes are especially plentiful.

Click to expand...

Those tiger stripe cows only have one copy of the dominant white faced gene from the hereford. When bred to a solid black bull you have a 50-50 shot of her passing that gene on. You will NOT get ALL baldy calves. It is basic genetics.
The f1 tiger stripe also carries a copy of the red gene so if bred to a red carrier black bull you get a 25% chance of a red

• calf.

Click to expand...

thats right and with a cross like that the red percentage might be higher

ALACOWMAN":3a797mp7 said:

i believe as for as pounds go i can take a strait simmental bull on F1 tigers and raise as heavy if not heavier calf than with a simm/angus and with a simbrah F1 cow with a with a herf bull or simm i could warp the scales. but that extra 50-75 pounds might not help much across the board

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Good point Alacowman. That's the train of thought I was looking for. Reasoning to back up the apparently taboo subject of cross bred bulls.

What it boils down to when using crossbred bulls (and sorry guys, but Balancer and SimAngus bulls are crossbred bulls) is that you get too much genetic variation.

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There is too much genetic variation in most purebred herds too. I'd rather have a crossbred bull from a breeder who has followed a consistant breeding program, over a purebred bull from someone who has chased every fad over the last 10+ years.

Dap":7frqhtxg said:

There is too much genetic variation in most purebred herds too. I'd rather have a crossbred bull from a breeder who has followed a consistant breeding program, over a purebred bull from someone who has chased every fad over the last 10+ years.

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THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

Someone has finally said it!

I really don't understand this taboo against good crossbred bulls.

You got it folks!

Mostly I see a bunch of purebred breeders with crossed up lines telling me how much more uniform the calves will be from their bulls than from well designed 1/2 blood and composite programs.


Most of them have never owned a crossbred cow anyway, nor do they pay attention to the results from good crossbreeding programs. They just want to sell you expensive purebreds, rather than cheaper crossbreds, it is that simple.

It's just good ole boy purebred protectionist ********.

mtnman