Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Got a calving or breeding question? Get an answer.
User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7739
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:20 pm

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
I have used semen from that last one. They were very nice. As nice as my best Simmental calves.
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
sstterry
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:04 am
Location: Bulls Gap, TN

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby sstterry » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:09 pm

I find this debate fascinating and it is similar to a discussion I had Saturday with an old friend that runs a registered Herford in Ga. He is and always will be a Herford guy. I told him that I was going to be looking for a Simmental bull in the spring and he said he had to admit that Simmental was one of the better breeds at this time. He was knocking the Angus because as he put it, "They have bred too much to the calving ease and are slowly losing what they had gained in growth".

I have always seen a big difference between the breeders that breed for show and those that breed for the commercial herd. In my area, you never hear of any type of fescue endophyte toxicity. The cattle in this area are well adapted and it is just not a concern. I truly believe that the best approach depends on your goals. I agree with Vince, there are very few commercial operations where I live that would be willing or have the time to do what most registered herds would do. I think the key is evaluating your goals and having a balance between genetics, suitability for the environment, and adjusting to your goals as you go.
1 x

User avatar
Nesikep
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 13617
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Lillooet, BC, Canada

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Nesikep » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:11 pm

Here's a link to the breeder/info on the bull in my second pic. touted as a "back to basics" bull.. yeah.. I though structure was basic.. and ironically enough, they're so proud of AI they have it as part of their name
https://hoffmanaibreeders.com/bulls.php
0 x
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
-Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
sstterry
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:04 am
Location: Bulls Gap, TN

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby sstterry » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:05 pm

Nesikep wrote:Here's a link to the breeder/info on the bull in my second pic. touted as a "back to basics" bull.. yeah.. I though structure was basic.. and ironically enough, they're so proud of AI they have it as part of their name
https://hoffmanaibreeders.com/bulls.php

I have always liked length in a bull, some of these at their site are getting ridiculous! Pretty soon some Bulls will look like Weiner dogs. This proves both sides of the debate.
0 x

User avatar
sim.-ang.king
GURU
GURU
Posts: 4341
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:17 pm
Location: Southern IL
Contact:

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby sim.-ang.king » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:09 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:So wouldn't that make a local bull or a bull from the same environment, with a long family line in that environment, more valuable than a bull from far way, in a different environment?


That is where homework comes into play. There is a wide selection of Angus semen. Look at the pedigree of the bull you want semen from. See where those animals were bred. In fact, go look at the bull where he is being collected. You can tailor the AI sire to your environment.

That opens another facet of the discussion. There is no reason one cannot go kick the tires of an AI sire. Fire Sweep Simmental helps me with my semen selection. She does a lot of that. Just because a bull is posed in a catalog does not mean you should not go have an on-the-ground-look. Fire Sweep Simmental also knows a lot of the Simmental cow families.

And don't forget, we are breeding our cows to an AI sire. So our cows are the foundation, they are already providing their adaptations to the environment to the calf you are producing by AI.


So are you agreeing that bulls from the same environment would be better than one's from a different environment?

I'm starting to get the vibe that you just want someone to say that your right in your choice of using A.I. over using a live local bull???
0 x
"Benign Neglect" -Dun

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7739
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:16 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:So wouldn't that make a local bull or a bull from the same environment, with a long family line in that environment, more valuable than a bull from far way, in a different environment?


That is where homework comes into play. There is a wide selection of Angus semen. Look at the pedigree of the bull you want semen from. See where those animals were bred. In fact, go look at the bull where he is being collected. You can tailor the AI sire to your environment.

That opens another facet of the discussion. There is no reason one cannot go kick the tires of an AI sire. Fire Sweep Simmental helps me with my semen selection. She does a lot of that. Just because a bull is posed in a catalog does not mean you should not go have an on-the-ground-look. Fire Sweep Simmental also knows a lot of the Simmental cow families.

And don't forget, we are breeding our cows to an AI sire. So our cows are the foundation, they are already providing their adaptations to the environment to the calf you are producing by AI.


So are you agreeing that bulls from the same environment would be better than one's from a different environment?


No. I am not saying that. I am saying that the AI sire you select needs to be tailored to your environment. It doesn't matter if the bull is in Bangladesh. If he has a pedigree that includes blood lines that are adapted to the farm you are raising his calves on, you will be fine. That is what I mean by doing your homework.
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
sim.-ang.king
GURU
GURU
Posts: 4341
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:17 pm
Location: Southern IL
Contact:

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby sim.-ang.king » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:19 pm

Isn't that what I just said?

You got me as confused as a tomcat in a washing machine...
1 x
"Benign Neglect" -Dun

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7739
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:22 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:Isn't that what I just said?

You got me as confused as a tomcat in a washing machine...


Lol. As long as it has you thinking....
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

Midtenn
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:20 pm

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Midtenn » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:46 pm

This is a very interesting thread. I'm fascinated by genetics and still have a lot to learn. I will just add this: all the local registered folks (bull guys) in this area, at least the ones I'm aware of, tend to follow the bull of the month. At least now that I'm raising my own registered bulls ( and selling a few) I can at least try to do my homework and pick something that's better suited for my operation. Plus with our cross breeding, It would be really tough to do what we're doing without using AI.

I always try to compare cattle genetics to human.... Raising questions such as: why are people 6" taller than we were 200 years ago? How long does it take for environment to change us? Wisdom teeth come to mind. One things for sure, humans are much farther "outcrossed" than we were 200 years ago. Are the effects of outcrossing better or worse? I guess an argument could be made either way.
1 x

Lazy M
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:38 pm
Location: KY

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Lazy M » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:05 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Image
I have used semen from that last one. They were very nice. As nice as my best Simmental calves.

Is that War Party?
If so, you're right he was a heck of a good bull. Had a son that made some excellent calves.
1 x

User avatar
Nesikep
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 13617
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Lillooet, BC, Canada

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Nesikep » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:01 am

sstterry wrote:
Nesikep wrote:Here's a link to the breeder/info on the bull in my second pic. touted as a "back to basics" bull.. yeah.. I though structure was basic.. and ironically enough, they're so proud of AI they have it as part of their name
https://hoffmanaibreeders.com/bulls.php

I have always liked length in a bull, some of these at their site are getting ridiculous! Pretty soon some Bulls will look like Weiner dogs. This proves both sides of the debate.

Just to have the picture again of the bull
Image

what bull stands this way? doesn't look right to me at all

His hooves look like crap too
0 x
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
-Christopher Hitchens

wbvs58
GURU
GURU
Posts: 4003
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:45 am
Location: S.E. Queensland, Australia

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby wbvs58 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:42 am

Just to throw another question out there. Does the closed linebred herd suffer because it is not taking advantage of using the bulls that have stood out from their peers in respect to growth as lets face it there is not much measured other than kilos at weaning and yearling, scrotals and scan data before they are sold. Phenotype must go a long way to saying this is an exceptional bull.

So the closed herd misses out on introducing this stand out improved genetic package. Is it to their detriment? Or is it a case that this new bull is truly an outlier and it is unlikely that he pass his exceptional growth on to his progeny as it requires all the stars to line up like having the right dam, the right environment and the season to duplicate the one he grew up in. Also, the big one that says a good calf, the weaning weight, is it his ability to grow or is it the cows ability to feed him. Both EPD's are calculated from the same measurement, the calfs weight at weaning? The cows milk output is never measured.

Personally I operate similar to Ron, we both enjoy what we do now in our retirement. We both enjoy sampling genetics from well respected herds that have been around a lot longer than our herds and to see the resulting offspring in our herd. We both admire the work that breeders have done in these closed herds to produce an even line of cattle. What we do is never going to change the cattle industry of our countries but to us old farts it is nice to drive out in our paddocks and view the resulting eye candy so carry on with this discussion but don't tear strips off us we will continue doing as we do but it is great to hear this discussion.

Ken
1 x

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7739
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:45 am

Lazy M wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Image
I have used semen from that last one. They were very nice. As nice as my best Simmental calves.

Is that War Party?
If so, you're right he was a heck of a good bull. Had a son that made some excellent calves.


Yes. Werner War Party.
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7739
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:52 am

wbvs58 wrote:Just to throw another question out there. Does the closed linebred herd suffer because it is not taking advantage of using the bulls that have stood out from their peers in respect to growth as lets face it there is not much measured other than kilos at weaning and yearling, scrotals and scan data before they are sold. Phenotype must go a long way to saying this is an exceptional bull.

So the closed herd misses out on introducing this stand out improved genetic package. Is it to their detriment? Or is it a case that this new bull is truly an outlier and it is unlikely that he pass his exceptional growth on to his progeny as it requires all the stars to line up like having the right dam, the right environment and the season to duplicate the one he grew up in. Also, the big one that says a good calf, the weaning weight, is it his ability to grow or is it the cows ability to feed him. Both EPD's are calculated from the same measurement, the calfs weight at weaning? The cows milk output is never measured.

Personally I operate similar to Ron, we both enjoy what we do now in our retirement. We both enjoy sampling genetics from well respected herds that have been around a lot longer than our herds and to see the resulting offspring in our herd. We both admire the work that breeders have done in these closed herds to produce an even line of cattle. What we do is never going to change the cattle industry of our countries but to us old farts it is nice to drive out in our paddocks and view the resulting eye candy so carry on with this discussion but don't tear strips off us we will continue doing as we do but it is great to hear this discussion.

Ken


Well said.
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7739
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:40 am

Lazy M wrote:One question I have is with semen: will an AI stud from the West's progeny potentially have trouble with fescue tolerance? Or will the fact that the mother is adapted provide protection? My limited experience with ai seems to make me believe that the mother is sufficient, because most the bulls I've used with ai are from the West and I haven't noticed any issues with retained progeny..


Luke

Your question has been covered to some extent.

The cow is the foundation of your herd. Ebenezer whom is very knowledgeable of breeding, agrees with that principle. There in Madison County, you have a lot of fescue pasture, however, it is likely diluted with clovers and other Kentucky grasses. Furthermore, we don't have the toxicity levels that Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch has in Missouri (if anyone wants a challenge, try raising beef cattle on the forages FSSR deals with. I know their program well enough that my challenges here are a piece of cake compared to theirs). Since your cows are adapted to fescue, using an SI sire whose ancestors were raised on prairie grasses will work there. Remember, you don't have to keep the bull there, only his semen. And his calves will adapt as they transition from a milk diet to pasture.

Therefore, the Dam that has acquired resistance to endophyte toxicity will provide some protection.

BTW: whether resistance to endophyte toxicity is entirely genetic is being studied in a program the Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch is enrolled in.
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.


Return to “Breeding / Calving Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: frieghttrain and 8 guests