Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Got a calving or breeding question? Get an answer.
User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7253
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:02 pm

bse wrote:
To me it doesnt matter if its a bull on the hoof or a straw, you better do your homework!!!!
If a big outfit inbreeds and weeds out the problems, could that not be a good investment? they have done the work for me, Why because they can afford the throwaways i cant. the predictabilty is there.


That is my point. I don't have the remaining years or generations of cattle to move mountains. I have to stand on the shoulders of those who have done the work for me. It still requires doing your homework.
1 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

wbvs58
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3927
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:45 am
Location: S.E. Queensland, Australia

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby wbvs58 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:23 am

Would it be fair to say that in the days before Artificial Insemination that there were more closed herds linebreeding? I would imagine that with the uptake of AI that these herds experienced a lot of heterosis as they were able to sample a lot more outcross genetics.

Ken
0 x

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7253
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:01 am

wbvs58 wrote:Would it be fair to say that in the days before Artificial Insemination that there were more closed herds linebreeding? I would imagine that with the uptake of AI that these herds experienced a lot of heterosis as they were able to sample a lot more outcross genetics.

Ken


I would think so.
0 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1095
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:04 am

I read your posts about breeding practices. Some convey a level of "frustration" with the current "state of affairs" relating to cattle breeding. Am I picking up something or am I misinterpreting your words? I am just curious. Maybe frustration is not the right word but if I am detecting something, you will know what I mean. If it is my imagination, then you can tell me so.
Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why. I will tell a story or two.

Went to a state Angus field day years back at probably the biggest reg. operation at the time. I got there early, got to talking to a farm employee, asked about another breed so he said come ride with me to feed and I'll show them to you. We drove miles away, got to a big pasture, checked minerals for the Angus there and then went thru to the back pasture to see the other breed. Coming out about 100+ Angus cows and a couple of bulls (prior to DNA testing) came out of the woods. I asked what the group was. It was the part of the registered herd that did not breed back in time and they periodically did preg checks and if some were bred they were offered as registered bred cows. How did the calf know who his daddy was? Who would want a late bred cow? Same guy and farm are still big and in business.

Defect issues were hot a few years ago. I did not see why the problem could not just be axed and start with all knowns to be deleted, the BOD was in turmoil, politics were hot, some of the ingrained staff felt that they had position over members, ... . Seemed that a cleansing and openness was the best policy. I called the state delegate. I told him that he owed the clarity of association issues and resolution to the members more like me who run small herds. His actual answer was, "I have to look out for myself".

A number of bull sales here in recent years have been to replace short functioned well bred, high prices, over fed bulls from one source that went lame. Is this a medical issue or a lack of proper breeding, selection, culling, feeding and pricing? The money never comes back to the losers.

Just got a sales catalog from a nationally recognized Angus herd. No need to name as some here love them as a "source", a spring of life, a well of clear water, a trek to the top of the mountain to speak to the guru. (A bit of exaggeration on my part but I get paid by the word, you know! ;-) ) The foundation cows, the mothers of all life, are rivaling lard hogs in type. Maybe I jest a bit but not more than a little. Let me say that if they had a wider muzzle, they could be hippos! Is that a real cow? An ideal cow? A cow to make other folks think that is worth more money or the offspring are more valuable? It is some sort of hypnotism to make folks oo and ah over misfits. I have no idea.

A cow- the idea cow. Is she better as high fertility, easy function, long lasting, no frills or as a blob with high $B numbers. Which one does the association make the most money from? Which one (and her offspring) does the commercial cow/calf guy do the best with. After all, the whole game is terminal - all go to the grinder at some point. In between for some, it's all about show, extra $'s from the ones who are told that they are at the bottom of the ladder or merely an ego trip for some.

Just reading the tea leaves.

If a big outfit inbreeds and weeds out the problems, could that not be a good investment? they have done the work for me, Why because they can afford the throwaways i cant. the predictabilty is there.

Guess what, there are few inbred cattle sold or even bred in the USA. The throw aways might be in the sales catalog - how would you know or not know? In a nationwide sale, less than 10% of the folks who get a catalog or look on the internet are buyers. The old rule of thumb in business is that buyer turnover is 10% a year. Lets' say that 7% of the folks who get a catalog are buyers. How many folks have to bid to get all lots sold? 14% max of the lookers because all one lot needs to sell are two bidders. Just because there are long term sales and sources do not automatically equal quality and satisifaction. The entire buyer's list can theoretically turn over every 10 years.

ive used straws from all over no issues, maybe its the cow but there in my enviroment when there born, now there are lines of cattle with more hair, slicker, feet and leg issues, goes back to homework.
That has not been my experiences. I like to joke that if I have not tossed it out already, I have some great semen for sale at a cheap price. Like you said - homework and maybe some prayer for a big dose of divine intervention.
if your gonna sell bulls through a bull test or the likes they better be A I if you want to make money, not saying there better, just the nature of the business around here.
That is marketing, unfortunately, and not breeding.
1 x

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7429
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:25 am

Ebenezer, I always thought in business you needed to give the customer what they wanted not what you wanted? No one wants to buy a rat azz inbred bull.
0 x
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1095
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:40 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Ebenezer, I always thought in business you needed to give the customer what they wanted not what you wanted? No one wants to buy a rat azz inbred bull.
Sounds good to me.
0 x

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7253
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:40 am

Ebenezer wrote:Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why.


Thank you. I cannot help but wonder why it frustrates you. If I were looking for opportunities to be frustrated, all I have to do is look out the door at my neighbor.

Johnny is as good as gold but the manner he runs his cattle operation is disappointing. His limousine bull reminds me of a crocodile. That sounds bizarre but true. A long beast with no depth. Even seems to walk like a crocodile. However, he bought him from one of those "local breeders" who has been doing it for multiple generations. ;-) NOTE: He bought him for I think $1600 as a two year old. :lol:

Then I only have to drive 1/2 mile to my friend Adrian Craig. ( Luke, Farm Fence Solutions met him). He is Vince on steroids. He is actually one of our largest producers in the county. He runs 250 head on about 500 acres. He sees his cattle only when they come to hay and if he can get them up to sell some calves. I ask him to show Luke his handling facilities. He has a huge post driven in the center of the main sorting area to act as a shield when he is attacked. BTW: he stopped when I put my facility in. He laughed and said his cows would tear it up.

If you are looking for something to be frustrated over, why waste your time on those big fat hippo AI cattle. At least they are well fed and can be handled.
8) :lol:

Seriously, my fine friend. Your frustration seems to be misplaced. Only an opinion!
1 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7429
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:04 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why.


Thank you. I cannot help but wonder why it frustrates you. If I were looking for opportunities to be frustrated, all I have to do is look out the door at my neighbor.

Johnny is as good as gold but the manner he runs his cattle operation is disappointing. His limousine bull reminds me of a crocodile. That sounds bizarre but true. A long beast with no depth. Even seems to walk like a crocodile. However, he bought him from one of those "local breeders" who has been doing it for multiple generations. ;-) NOTE: He bought him for I think $1600 as a two year old. :lol:

Then I only have to drive 1/2 mile to my friend Adrian Craig. ( Luke, Farm Fence Solutions met him). He is Vince on steroids. He is actually one of our largest producers in the county. He runs 250 head on about 500 acres. He sees his cattle only when they come to hay and if he can get them up to sell some calves. I ask him to show Luke his handling facilities. He has a huge post driven in the center of the main sorting area to act as a shield when he is attacked. BTW: he stopped when I put my facility in. He laughed and said his cows would tear it up.

If you are looking for something to be frustrated over, why waste your time on those big fat hippo AI cattle. At least they are well fed and can be handled.
8) :lol:

Seriously, my fine friend. Your frustration seems to be misplaced. Only an opinion!

We all know you have really nice cows that fit your ideals. How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.
1 x
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7253
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:17 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why.


Thank you. I cannot help but wonder why it frustrates you. If I were looking for opportunities to be frustrated, all I have to do is look out the door at my neighbor.

Johnny is as good as gold but the manner he runs his cattle operation is disappointing. His limousine bull reminds me of a crocodile. That sounds bizarre but true. A long beast with no depth. Even seems to walk like a crocodile. However, he bought him from one of those "local breeders" who has been doing it for multiple generations. ;-) NOTE: He bought him for I think $1600 as a two year old. :lol:

Then I only have to drive 1/2 mile to my friend Adrian Craig. ( Luke, Farm Fence Solutions met him). He is Vince on steroids. He is actually one of our largest producers in the county. He runs 250 head on about 500 acres. He sees his cattle only when they come to hay and if he can get them up to sell some calves. I ask him to show Luke his handling facilities. He has a huge post driven in the center of the main sorting area to act as a shield when he is attacked. BTW: he stopped when I put my facility in. He laughed and said his cows would tear it up.

If you are looking for something to be frustrated over, why waste your time on those big fat hippo AI cattle. At least they are well fed and can be handled.
8) :lol:

Seriously, my fine friend. Your frustration seems to be misplaced. Only an opinion!

We all know you have really nice cows that fit your ideals. How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.


Johnny has a decent feeding program. But his mineral is worthless. I don't think he worms or vaccinates. I know he drags dead cows down into the holler. :shock: He simply does not put any effort into selecting a bull. He also buys sale barn cattle, some are very rough. In fact, he bought 2 cows about 2 years ago and both died.

I think my bulls would do ok there if they didn't grieve themselves to death looking across the fence at how much better they had it where they came from. :lol:
1 x
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

bse
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1174
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:50 pm
Location: middle tn

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby bse » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:22 am

Eb, great discussion here, I don't think the throwaway I'm talking about will be in a sale, a reputable breeder, a few are not, wouldn't last doing that. That aside if the straw is proven why not use it. EXT how many times was he used for inbreeding? Proven to me and alot of bulls along those lines, they work!!!
It was said marketing, that's what it all comes down to. I've got a guy coming today to look at bulls, doesn't even want to see the one out of my clean up bull, so he may wind up my clean up bull this yr, it's marketing and what the extension agency suggests.
0 x

User avatar
Ky hills
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:54 pm
Location: Clark County, KY

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ky hills » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:44 am

Here is an observation that I have made over time, bear in mind I started out with the impression that AI sired calves were superior. I will say in most cases they have performed well through weaning and into yearlings, however they are typically the first born calves so they have a slight advantage in that respect.
My way of thinking became challenged when the facts were undeniable. I run a small herd of both registered Angus, " even smaller now" and commercial Hereford and Hereford cross cows as well as a bred heifer program that utilizes mainly commercial black and BWF heifers. I run the weaned heifers all together under the same management, we have used chelated mineral for several years, and have a vaccination and worming regimen. The registered heifers mostly would be AI sired as well as some of the commercial calves also. Those calves typically as a whole would look as good or better than average at any point, the disappointment started coming in at time of pregnancy checking. The groups of heifers that had the best conception rates would be about equally proportioned of our Hereford cross calves, and the purchased commercial heifers. The registered Angus heifers and commercial calves by Angus AI bulls had significantly lower conception rates, and thus were culled. After culling most of our Angus cows and heifers that many contained well known AI pedigrees on both sides, it has become apparent to me that something was/is amiss. Another costly venture has been the bulls, we have had a high turnover rate of bulls. Again these bulls have all been AI sired and a couple were ET from several different area outfits.
I feel now that there is something to selecting for what works in our management and our environment, and am very skeptical about a lot of the bulls being marketed via AI. Not that I think they are necessarily bad individuals, just not the type and kind needed in all environments.
It is my opinion that many of the AI bulls of the Angus breed " I say Angus because I am more familiar with them than any other breed" are better suited for use as terminal sires, to which I think they would excel.
No doubt there are some well rounded bulls available just that current selective breeding trends particularly in the main stream are selecting for cattle that are perhaps focusing more on end product and not from a cow/calf perspective.
4 x

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1095
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:16 pm

How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.
I follow up on such. Seem to do well, repeat buyers, some order a replacement bull sight unseen a year ahead, I do not have enough bulls to meet the demand. More sales by customers to their friends or by seeing their calves than via advertising. I do not live in a bubble, as in, I understand. But I do like local.
3 x

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7429
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:34 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.
I follow up on such. Seem to do well, repeat buyers, some order a replacement bull sight unseen a year ahead, I do not have enough bulls to meet the demand. More sales by customers to their friends or by seeing their calves than via advertising. I do not live in a bubble, as in, I understand. But I do like local.

You must be doing something right, repeat customers tell the story. I bought line bred bulls from Hill-Vue Farms in north Georgia and they were adverage. I'm still looking for the magic recipe, maybe our next set of bulls? Let's spin it a different way, how do you think your bulls would sell at bull test sale where folks don't know you or your operation?
0 x
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1095
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:52 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:
How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.
I follow up on such. Seem to do well, repeat buyers, some order a replacement bull sight unseen a year ahead, I do not have enough bulls to meet the demand. More sales by customers to their friends or by seeing their calves than via advertising. I do not live in a bubble, as in, I understand. But I do like local.

You must be doing something right, repeat customers tell the story. I bought line bred bulls from Hill-Vue Farms in north Georgia and they were adverage. I'm still looking for the magic recipe, maybe our next set of bulls? Let's spin it a different way, how do you think your bulls would sell at bull test sale where folks don't know you or your operation?
Poorly. Bull tests are terminal tests. Not my game.
1 x

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1095
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm

Image
3 x


Return to “Breeding / Calving Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests