Ebenezer wrote:Bright Raven wrote:Ebenezer wrote: condensed down to 3 items:
1.......should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for?
2...... if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows?
3......if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection?Should is correct if we all professionally look down the road through the steps towards terminal products. The obligation of a breed or purebred breeder who says that their animals are worth anything to a commercial grower should honestly market the animals needed. What are the current complaints of breeds? Feet and legs, udders, breeding, calving ease, ... and not "I need more terminal". Pie in the sky to think that all work together, I know.1. Should is not the correct word to lead that question. That implies they are in violation of some kinda rule. The answer is: they breed for whatever market they are targeting their product for. Look at the bulls in an SS catalog. Some are hyped for producing good maternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good paternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good terminal traits. Goes back the the point gpl made.
Other opinion - increasing MM is not maternal. It is a production trait that is antagonistic at a breaking point for fertility. Fertility in the cow herd is maternal. Lot of misuse of terms it seems.From the Angus breed. From the greatness of bull test winners. From increasing EPDs being the best. It is plastered everywhere.2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.Why would folks discount a bull as not being "bull test type" if he can leave better daughters? That is the gist. In other words, associations, university folks, experts and such never seem to say "enough is enough" so that better cattle can be raised in a commercial setting. The best always seems to be the extreme in production or terminal traits. The maternal bull you mentioned would probably get little notice from many - same idea. Comment on the War Party bull being overlooked is several posts back. Always has and always will go on.3. I might need some help with 3. I am not positive what you are asking.
I get what you're saying and agree About mm. I'd like to ask opinions on CEM. It seems to me the more fertility in my herd is usually with cows that have lower CEM numbers. I know some of this is a correlation with larger frame size = higher CEM. I have a young bull now that I'm using as a clean up for heifers but after his DNA results he has a -2 CEM. He is out of my most fertile, moderate sized angus cow that always weans a big calf. He is sired by soo line motive. Should I keep his daughters?