Truth or Judgement on Breeding

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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby sim.-ang.king » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:40 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Bill

It takes many generations of selection for specific traits to affect what is coded in the genes. Having taken several undergraduate and graduate level courses in the study of genetics, I don't see it happening that rapidly. Therefore, I am forced to say No.


But isn't that making a diffident statement of truth based on your judgement of your experiences? Didn't you start this thread to say we shouldn't do such things?

The answer to that is a judgement not a TRUTH.

Who is to say that your judgement on the effect of semen from far away, verse local bulls not effecting their offspring's ability to live in their current environment, is true?
Well considering that you are your only witness, I must assume it as false, and replace it with my own judgement on the matter.
Is not this how the modern post-truth world works?


Nope


Is that a definitely "nope", or just your opinion that's it is a "nope"?
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:47 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:
But isn't that making a diffident statement of truth based on your judgement of your experiences? Didn't you start this thread to say we shouldn't do such things?

The answer to that is a judgement not a TRUTH.

Who is to say that your judgement on the effect of semen from far away, verse local bulls not effecting their offspring's ability to live in their current environment, is true?
Well considering that you are your only witness, I must assume it as false, and replace it with my own judgement on the matter.
Is not this how the modern post-truth world works?


Nope


Is that a definitely "nope", or just your opinion that's it is a "nope"?


Just a common old country nope. ;-)
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby sim.-ang.king » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:55 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Nope


Is that a definitely "nope", or just your opinion that's it is a "nope"?


Just a common old country nope. ;-)

Need a bumper sticker that says, "Just Say Nope".
Would probably have a confound effect on those good ol'country folks.
:lol:
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby wbvs58 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:26 am

How are most AI sires selected? Are they stand out growth calves amongst their contempory groups? Is it because of outstanding EPD's inherited from their parents? Is it because of just outstanding phenotype? Has their progeny excelled in a benchmark test. However they get there they must have excelled in at least one of these parameters to get a foot in the door on the way to being proven.

Ken
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:10 am

Ky hills wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:I appreciate the contributions to this thread.

Here is my theory on the "locality" issue.

My cows are the foundation of my herd. Not the bulls. If my cows do well here, logic would suggest that their calves would inherit some of the traits to do well in this environment. I am 100% AI. Regardless of where that semen bull was raised, if I put his calf on the ground here, that calf will as it grows acquire the necessary enzymes and physiological processes to function on my forages.


I have had that until recently theory as well, but am pondering another caveat. I agree completely that when a calf is born it becomes accustomed to that environment, but what if only somewhat. If a bull has multiple generations of localized breeding in a particular environment in an area in Montana, then a cow has a calf in KY, wouldn't the breeding on the sires side have at least some genetic predisposition?


Bill,

I thought on this. There are two mechanisms at work and I want to make sure I understood your question. For adaptations to occur in the genes, it requires long periods of environmental pressure. For example, a change in a gene that provides some resistance to the toxins that the endophyte fungus produces. On the other hand, if a gene already exists in the population, then if it can be selected for by breeding. That can occur over a few generations.
Last edited by Bright Raven on Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:17 am

wbvs58 wrote:How are most AI sires selected? Are they stand out growth calves amongst their contempory groups? Is it because of outstanding EPD's inherited from their parents? Is it because of just outstanding phenotype? Has their progeny excelled in a benchmark test. However they get there they must have excelled in at least one of these parameters to get a foot in the door on the way to being proven.

Ken


This gets to the heart of the issue. I see lots of criticism of AI sires based on the implications that they are not selected for in as rigorous conditions as the so called "local breeder" does who breeds for multiple generations.

I think that is a mis-implication. Breeders who produce AI sires also breed for many generations and they select their best bulls based on most or all of the criteria you listed.

In fact, the local breeder sells lots of bulls. Based on that volume alone, I would doubt that every bull even comes close to meeting the criteria an AI sire does.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:41 am

Bright Raven wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:How are most AI sires selected? Are they stand out growth calves amongst their contempory groups? Is it because of outstanding EPD's inherited from their parents? Is it because of just outstanding phenotype? Has their progeny excelled in a benchmark test. However they get there they must have excelled in at least one of these parameters to get a foot in the door on the way to being proven.

Ken


This gets to the heart of the issue. I see lots of criticism of AI sires based on the implications that they are not selected for in as rigorous conditions as the so called "local breeder" does who breeds for multiple generations.

I think that is a mis-implication. Breeders who produce AI sires also breed for many generations and they select their best bulls based on most or all of the criteria you listed.

In fact, the local breeder sells lots of bulls. Based on that volume alone, I would doubt that every bull even comes close to meeting the criteria an AI sire does.

I can't see where that's factual at all. Most cattle that are used for AI and ET are pampered, and need to be. I can't imagine trying to run range cattle through a chute 3 or 4 times within a couple of weeks. Most AI bulls are bred with EPD'S in mind, aren't yours? For the most part AI bulls have never had to walk the walk, hustle and get the job done. The toughness and hardiness is getting bred or fed out of the US beef herd on both sides.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:17 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
This gets to the heart of the issue. I see lots of criticism of AI sires based on the implications that they are not selected for in as rigorous conditions as the so called "local breeder" does who breeds for multiple generations.

I think that is a mis-implication. Breeders who produce AI sires also breed for many generations and they select their best bulls based on most or all of the criteria you listed.

In fact, the local breeder sells lots of bulls. Based on that volume alone, I would doubt that every bull even comes close to meeting the criteria an AI sire does.


I can't see where that's factual at all. Most cattle that are used for AI and ET are pampered, and need to be. I can't imagine trying to run range cattle through a chute 3 or 4 times within a couple of weeks. Most AI bulls are bred with EPD'S in mind, aren't yours? For the most part AI bulls have never had to walk the walk, hustle and get the job done. The toughness and hardiness is getting bred or fed out of the US beef herd on both sides.


Your point is that AI Sires are boarded under different conditions than "range cattle". Thus, they are not subjected to the rigors of a bull produced under conditions where they are pulled off the cow at weaning and reared in a bull pen or bull pasture.

First, the large volume bull producers handle their prospective bulls not much differently that the producers that strive to meet the criteria for producing an AI sire. Using a real example, I know Angus bull producers who have been breeding and selecting bulls for many generations. If I drive to their farm today, they are rearing their bulls under the same conditions as the bulls are at Boyd Cattle Company. I drive by Boyd every day. You see their best bulls out in a pasture just like you do their neighbors who are just running commercial cows. Now, I will confess, I don't know what the feeding regiment is. But it is probably not a lot different than if I drive to Poe Angus and watch how Diane feeds her bulls out for breeding bulls. (BTW: I have actually done that, I know how she feeds them)

Furthermore, there is an implication that because they are boarded under "pampered" conditions, then, if you use their semen, the way the bull was boarded will affect the offspring produced from that semen. That is a mis-implication. How the bull is pampered is not encoded in the DNA of his semen.

If you look at the big breeders (I will use Angus) who have a track record of producing AI semen bulls, like Connealy, Schaff Angus Valley, etc. they have been breeding for generations. What is important is not how the bull is boarded because all the bull is - a semen producing machine. What is important is what is in his pedigree, EPDs, phenotype, genotype, etc.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:34 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Ky hills wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:I appreciate the contributions to this thread.

Here is my theory on the "locality" issue.

My cows are the foundation of my herd. Not the bulls. If my cows do well here, logic would suggest that their calves would inherit some of the traits to do well in this environment. I am 100% AI. Regardless of where that semen bull was raised, if I put his calf on the ground here, that calf will as it grows acquire the necessary enzymes and physiological processes to function on my forages.


I have had that until recently theory as well, but am pondering another caveat. I agree completely that when a calf is born it becomes accustomed to that environment, but what if only somewhat. If a bull has multiple generations of localized breeding in a particular environment in an area in Montana, then a cow has a calf in KY, wouldn't the breeding on the sires side have at least some genetic predisposition?


Bill,

I thought on this. There are two mechanisms at work and I want to make sure I understood your question. For adaptations to occur in the genes, it requires long periods of environmental pressure. For example, a change in a gene that provides some resistance to the toxins that the endophyte fungus produces. On the other hand, if a gene already exists in the population, then if it can be selected for by breeding. That can occur over a few generations.


How powerful do you deem gestational programming to be? I think it is key in an animal being adapted to particular feed types. And there is some research where Mitochondrial DNA is only inherited from the dam. As in the thought that I prefer the 25% AI sire influence - 2 shots of gestational programming and such. The learned traits after birth are more behavioral?
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:41 am

wbvs58 wrote:How are most AI sires selected? Are they stand out growth calves amongst their contempory groups? Is it because of outstanding EPD's inherited from their parents? Is it because of just outstanding phenotype? Has their progeny excelled in a benchmark test. However they get there they must have excelled in at least one of these parameters to get a foot in the door on the way to being proven.

Ken

The companies have particular (favorite) herds that they go to for many. Some new bulls are chosen for links to other bulls they already have as in a son that excelled in a test or the son of a bull in another catalog as a competitor type. It is much like a candy store - they carry a wide range of options to keep more customers. Yes, some buyers reach constantly for the brass ring of more and more in EPDs.

I hate to say it but phenotype seems to be secondary. Mr. Lingle used to say, "Goodness has a pattern". I will also add that "Ugly has a pattern and consequences". Likely, more better bulls are available from private herds which sell semen or bulls for fit.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:46 am

Ebenezer wrote:How powerful do you deem gestational programming to be? I think it is key in an animal being adapted to particular feed types. And there is some research where Mitochondrial DNA is only inherited from the dam. As in the thought that I prefer the 25% AI sire influence - 2 shots of gestational programming and such. The learned traits after birth are more behavioral?


Gestational programming is not on level as encoded DNA programming. The role it plays is not only apples and oranges to encoded genotype changes but cannot account for such major adaptations as say endophyte toxin resistance.

In regard to behavior. That is a science in and of itself. I happen to be in the school that thinks behavior is 75 % encoded and 25% due to environmental influenced learning.

For example, the cows that I started with that will actually let you sit on them - I have noticed all their offspring will also let me sit on them. It is in their genes (genotype).
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:49 am

Ebenezer wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:How are most AI sires selected? Are they stand out growth calves amongst their contempory groups? Is it because of outstanding EPD's inherited from their parents? Is it because of just outstanding phenotype? Has their progeny excelled in a benchmark test. However they get there they must have excelled in at least one of these parameters to get a foot in the door on the way to being proven.

Ken

The companies have particular (favorite) herds that they go to for many. Some new bulls are chosen for links to other bulls they already have as in a son that excelled in a test or the son of a bull in another catalog as a competitor type. It is much like a candy store - they carry a wide range of options to keep more customers. Yes, some buyers reach constantly for the brass ring of more and more in EPDs.

I hate to say it but phenotype seems to be secondary. Mr. Lingle used to say, "Goodness has a pattern". I will also add that "Ugly has a pattern and consequences". Likely, more better bulls are available from private herds which sell semen or bulls for fit.


I think you have some good points. I see AI sires that don't impress with their phenotype. I also notice some stick with a line and try to keep milking it for another AI sire.

But the bull breeders who sell live bulls off the farm, do the same thing.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:57 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:How are most AI sires selected? Are they stand out growth calves amongst their contempory groups? Is it because of outstanding EPD's inherited from their parents? Is it because of just outstanding phenotype? Has their progeny excelled in a benchmark test. However they get there they must have excelled in at least one of these parameters to get a foot in the door on the way to being proven.

Ken

The companies have particular (favorite) herds that they go to for many. Some new bulls are chosen for links to other bulls they already have as in a son that excelled in a test or the son of a bull in another catalog as a competitor type. It is much like a candy store - they carry a wide range of options to keep more customers. Yes, some buyers reach constantly for the brass ring of more and more in EPDs.

I hate to say it but phenotype seems to be secondary. Mr. Lingle used to say, "Goodness has a pattern". I will also add that "Ugly has a pattern and consequences". Likely, more better bulls are available from private herds which sell semen or bulls for fit.


I think you have some good points. I see AI sires that don't impress with their phenotype. I also notice some stick with a line and try to keep milking it for another AI sire.

But the bull breeders who sell live bulls off the farm, do the same thing.

But you, the buyer, can walk away from poor phenotype, look for feed bins, troughs, tubs, mix wagons, ask questions, see if the generations behind the bulls are there and functioning. Bull shopping is not a one stop shop for most unless they have tasted success with a source and some will then be repeat buyers sight unseen.

All said, folks who come and look for a bull or a ram all get the same question from me, "Do you want to see the cows/ewes?". I think they ought to. But the test sale mentality is strong (bulls away from home and all you get to see) and very few want to see the side of the cow and her type, the herd, the good and the bad. Really a sad commentary. But I am always thinking of the resultants for replacements. I think I know more about a bull/ram by the function and type of the cow/ewe than a doctored photo of the sire. Just me.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:04 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:The companies have particular (favorite) herds that they go to for many. Some new bulls are chosen for links to other bulls they already have as in a son that excelled in a test or the son of a bull in another catalog as a competitor type. It is much like a candy store - they carry a wide range of options to keep more customers. Yes, some buyers reach constantly for the brass ring of more and more in EPDs.

I hate to say it but phenotype seems to be secondary. Mr. Lingle used to say, "Goodness has a pattern". I will also add that "Ugly has a pattern and consequences". Likely, more better bulls are available from private herds which sell semen or bulls for fit.


I think you have some good points. I see AI sires that don't impress with their phenotype. I also notice some stick with a line and try to keep milking it for another AI sire.

But the bull breeders who sell live bulls off the farm, do the same thing.

But you, the buyer, can walk away from poor phenotype, look for feed bins, troughs, tubs, mix wagons, ask questions, see if the generations behind the bulls are there and functioning. Bull shopping is not a one stop shop for most unless they have tasted success with a source and some will then be repeat buyers sight unseen.

All said, folks who come and look for a bull or a ram all get the same question from me, "Do you want to see the cows/ewes?". I think they ought to. But the test sale mentality is strong (bulls away from home and all you get to see) and very few want to see the side of the cow and her type, the herd, the good and the bad. Really a sad commentary. But I am always thinking of the resultants for replacements. I think I know more about a bull/ram by the function and type of the cow/ewe than a doctored photo of the sire. Just me.


100 % agree. I sell bulls too. I like the buyer to know everything. I sold that Broadway bull. I must have reminded the buyer 5 or 6 times that he is not calving ease.

Note: I have no motive to push AI sires. I have nothing invested. My point is that if you use them responsibly and do your home work, you can do quite well. For me it is easy. I have a small herd and I don't have to mess with a herd bull.
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Re: Truth or Judgement on Breeding

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:09 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
This gets to the heart of the issue. I see lots of criticism of AI sires based on the implications that they are not selected for in as rigorous conditions as the so called "local breeder" does who breeds for multiple generations.

I think that is a mis-implication. Breeders who produce AI sires also breed for many generations and they select their best bulls based on most or all of the criteria you listed.

In fact, the local breeder sells lots of bulls. Based on that volume alone, I would doubt that every bull even comes close to meeting the criteria an AI sire does.


I can't see where that's factual at all. Most cattle that are used for AI and ET are pampered, and need to be. I can't imagine trying to run range cattle through a chute 3 or 4 times within a couple of weeks. Most AI bulls are bred with EPD'S in mind, aren't yours? For the most part AI bulls have never had to walk the walk, hustle and get the job done. The toughness and hardiness is getting bred or fed out of the US beef herd on both sides.


Your point is that AI Sires are boarded under different conditions than "range cattle". Thus, they are not subjected to the rigors of a bull produced under conditions where they are pulled off the cow at weaning and reared in a bull pen or bull pasture.

First, the large volume bull producers handle their prospective bulls not much differently that the producers that strive to meet the criteria for producing an AI sire. Using a real example, I know Angus bull producers who have been breeding and selecting bulls for many generations. If I drive to their farm today, they are rearing their bulls under the same conditions as the bulls are at Boyd Cattle Company. I drive by Boyd every day. You see their best bulls out in a pasture just like you do their neighbors who are just running commercial cows. Now, I will confess, I don't know what the feeding regiment is. But it is probably not a lot different than if I drive to Poe Angus and watch how Diane feeds her bulls out for breeding bulls. (BTW: I have actually done that, I know how she feeds them)

Furthermore, there is an implication that because they are boarded under "pampered" conditions, then, if you use their semen, the way the bull was boarded will affect the offspring produced from that semen. That is a mis-implication. How the bull is pampered is not encoded in the DNA of his semen.


If you look at the big breeders (I will use Angus) who have a track record of producing AI semen bulls, like Connealy, Schaff Angus Valley, etc. they have been breeding for generations. What is important is not how the bull is boarded because all the bull is - a semen producing machine. What is important is what is in his pedigree, EPDs, phenotype, genotype, etc.

I've never been to any of those places, but DVF, GAR feed and pamper selective animals that have the look and EPD'S for use as breeding stock. It's very important how a bull is managed, him being a semen producing machine only matters if he has the structure and stamina to get the job done year in and year out. My way of thinking is one out of the two parents need to be proven under working conditions, just not by the numbers. There's a reason why every animal with good EPD'S and sound breeding behind them don't all end up making the cut. There's a good market for bull multipliers for the small producer, there's also a good market for the folks that raise bulls for the bigger operations.
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