Upside down

Got a calving or breeding question? Get an answer.
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dun
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Postby dun » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:16 am

randiliana wrote:
Beefy wrote:i think certain bloodlines are more prone to this sort of thing. are these cows related? i'm assuming youve been using different bulls...


Some of the cows would be related, but for the most part I don't think that would be the case. Most of our cows have been purchased from different sources over the last 8 or so years. As well we are seeing it in both old and young cows. We use hereford, angus and gelbveih bulls and have had upside down calves from all 3 breeds and from more than 1 bull of each breed.

Randi


If it's not from overly full rumens (that was the overfeeding question) the Australian calves out of Canadian cows is as close as any other guess. How about exercise, are they drylotted or out on pasture and having to cover some territory for feed to water to minerals?

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Postby randiliana » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:16 am

cedar wrote:Turn AI gun over


HAHAHAHAHAHA!! These cows were all bred by natural service!! I would hate to be out there explaining to them that they have to change their methods!!
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Postby jcarkie » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:50 am

is there a connection in the cows that have had the upside down calves?r is it the same cows, or different everytime?
as stated are they related? 1/2 sisters, common sire somewhere, etc...?
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Postby randiliana » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:40 pm

[quote="dun
If it's not from overly full rumens (that was the overfeeding question) the Australian calves out of Canadian cows is as close as any other guess. How about exercise, are they drylotted or out on pasture and having to cover some territory for feed to water to minerals?

dun[/quote]

during the winter they are out on either a 1/4 section or 1/2 section and they have to walk from the feed to the water. We bring them in about 10 days ahead of calving and then they will walk about 1/8 mile from feed to water (uphill). And yes they are supplied with minerals too.
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randiliana
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Postby randiliana » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:52 pm

jcarkie wrote:is there a connection in the cows that have had the upside down calves?r is it the same cows, or different everytime?
as stated are they related? 1/2 sisters, common sire somewhere, etc...?


To the best of my knowledge they are not related at all. All but one of thhem was purchased at sometime in the past. some were purchased 7 years ago and some only a couple. They almost all came from a different place too. And, the dam of the one we raised has never had misrepresented calf of any sort. As well, birthweights on these calves was anywhere from 72 to 106 pounds. So there you are....... who knows, but it is an interesting topic!!
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Postby rkm » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:11 pm

While I was in dairy business we had a lot of upside down calves , some upside down and backward. Some years worse than others. Vets never had a good answer for it. We also had a problem with twisted Uteruses.
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Postby W.B. » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:17 pm

I have heard of operations having a lot of trouble with backwards calves. They sold all of their bulls and replaced them. This pretty much eliminated the problem.

I had a cow that had three backwards calves in her lifetime. Makes me think that it is genetic. Have kept daughters from her and they have never had a backwards calve.

I definitely would try to do something different on the sire side of the equation.
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Postby MikeC » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:16 pm

W.B. wrote:I have heard of operations having a lot of trouble with backwards calves. They sold all of their bulls and replaced them. This pretty much eliminated the problem.

I had a cow that had three backwards calves in her lifetime. Makes me think that it is genetic. Have kept daughters from her and they have never had a backwards calve.

I definitely would try to do something different on the sire side of the equation.


How could this be, WB? Make me believe you with a reasonable explanation of how the bull could have anything to do with it.

Seriously!
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Postby randiliana » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:22 pm

[quote="W.B."]I have heard of operations having a lot of trouble with backwards calves. They sold all of their bulls and replaced them. This pretty much eliminated the problem.

I had a cow that had three backwards calves in her lifetime. Makes me think that it is genetic. Have kept daughters from her and they have never had a backwards calve.

I definitely would try to do something different on the sire side of the equation.[/quote]

OK, I can give you all the details you could possibly want on the sire side of things!!

The bulls that we have had upsidedown calves are
Sire____Breed____________Calf Crops
125G__Horned Hereford _______2000 -2003
59L___Gelbveih _____________2003
119K__Horned Hereford_______2003 - 2005
3K____Horned Hereford ______2003 - 2006
28M___Black Angus _________2004
1134L _Black Angus _________2003 - 2006
019K___Gelbveih____________2005 - 2006

And the calves that were upside down in 2003
Cow#......... BW......... Sire
56 ............. 79......... 59L
42............. 96.......... 59L
81............. 78.......... 125G
203 ............101......... 119K
204............. 82 ..........125G

in 2004
9.............. 72 ........... 28M
100 ........... 85............ 1134L

in 2005
222............ 106........... 119K

in 2006 so far
64............... 86............ 019K

As you can see by this there is no rhyme nor reason :roll: . There in no specific sire that is giving us upside down calves and some of them we have used for several years and only had upsidedown calves in one year or they have missed years in between. We have also had other sires here and there that we have NOT had upsidedown calves from but many of them didn't last long so who knows what could have been. We had one other upside down calf previous to these and it was out of a heifer that we had bought and was bred Limo. So unless we have been really unlucky in our choice of bulls I cannot see how the sire could be responsible! :lol:[u][/u]
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Postby CattleAnnie » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:44 pm

Randi,

Sometimes these things just happen.

Hang in there...hopefully you're through with dealing with them - at least for this calving season. ;-)



Take care.
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Postby W.B. » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:15 am

Mikec: There was an article in either Beef Toady or Beef magazine on the backward calf subject. The vet quoted in the article said they had a producer that solved the problem by changing bulls. It has to do with the rate of fetus growth during the last trimester I think.
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Postby randiliana » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:47 pm

CattleAnnie wrote:Randi,

Sometimes these things just happen.

Hang in there...hopefully you're through with dealing with them - at least for this calving season. ;-)



Take care.


Yes they do!! I just thought I would bring this one up for the newbies, that may encounter it and wonder what the heck!! And to see what everyone else has to say.
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Postby randiliana » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:48 pm

W.B. wrote:Mikec: There was an article in either Beef Toady or Beef magazine on the backward calf subject. The vet quoted in the article said they had a producer that solved the problem by changing bulls. It has to do with the rate of fetus growth during the last trimester I think.


Ahhhhh, that could make sense!!
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Postby MikeC » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:03 pm

W.B. wrote:Mikec: There was an article in either Beef Toady or Beef magazine on the backward calf subject. The vet quoted in the article said they had a producer that solved the problem by changing bulls. It has to do with the rate of fetus growth during the last trimester I think.


But wouldn't the rate of fetus growth in the last trimester have more to do with management and cow genetics?

Not sure I agree but I'm still listening and I want to know.
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Postby randiliana » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:27 pm

MikeC wrote:
W.B. wrote:Mikec: There was an article in either Beef Toady or Beef magazine on the backward calf subject. The vet quoted in the article said they had a producer that solved the problem by changing bulls. It has to do with the rate of fetus growth during the last trimester I think.


But wouldn't the rate of fetus growth in the last trimester have more to do with management and cow genetics?

Not sure I agree but I'm still listening and I want to know.


Good point, that would be part of the growth factor. But, most of the growth happens in the last trimester, and there can be a wide range of BW between different bulls obviously. Some do grow faster than others, but then again if that is the reason for backwards calves, there should be many, many more backwards calves. And by the way, backwards is a NORMAL presentation!!
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