Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

For the dairy folks and/or beef folks with questions about udders, milk and mastitis.
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby cbcr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:38 pm

farmerjan wrote:One of my dairies has used a fair amount of montb and said the cows were too fat, yet they milked well and had good butterfat and no health issues.
I have no experience with Fleckvieh. I would not use shorthorn but mostly because again, there is no market for the calves.


The cows were not too fat! That is one of the thing with the Fleckvieh, Montbeliarde and Normande, they are what we call strength breeds. They are not frail like the Holstein, they have more condition and strength. Most dairy producers think that a cow has to be sharp and angular in order to milk. Not the case with these breeds at all.

Like I have mentioned in other posts, the Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde can produce right with their Holstein herdmates with better components, breed back quicker and have fewer health issues plus they can stay in the herd longer. Also they are more feed efficient.

All of these thing can add up to more potential income for producers.
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Stocker Steve » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:28 pm

Son of Butch wrote:Sale barn sold 5 bred solid mouth Normande cows today... due in spring... 1410 lbs $685 hd = 48.5 cents lb


Did you bid?
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Nesikep » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:30 pm

farmerjan wrote:I like the montbeliarde crosses. The cattle flesh really well no matter what they are out of. I have crossed my jerseys with angus, a few simmentals, some aubrac, and will be using some limi semen I have this year on anything I do not want a dairy replacement heifer out of. Trying to get a few more percentage guernseys, as they were so close bred that they do not have the "staying" power. One of my dairies has used a fair amount of montb and said the cows were too fat, yet they milked well and had good butterfat and no health issues. The steer calves finished out good.... but there is no market for anything beef that is not black. So they make good personal beef or private sales.
Normande are also a pretty decent dairy cross.
I have no experience with Fleckvieh. I would not use shorthorn but mostly because again, there is no market for the calves.

I don't know how Limo/jersey would be.. Shorthorn could be good, just go with a solid red, there's lots available.. I'll breed pimp and say gelbvieh
Here's a calf from a Jersey dam and Hector (Gelbvieh x shorthorn)
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Son of Butch » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:51 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Son of Butch wrote:Sale barn sold 5 bred solid mouth Normande cows today... due in spring... 1410 lbs $685 hd = 48.5 cents lb


Did you bid?

No sir, currently buying a few more holstein feeder steers... almost think I should be buying hols feeder hfrs instead.
550 - 850 lb hols steers 65 - 80 cents
550# hols heifers 50-60 cents
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Stocker Steve » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:15 pm

Guy tried to sell me some Normande - - claimed they produced super bwf calves when crossed BA. :???:

Real deal is bred Holstein heifers - - 42 cents. :nod:
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby farmerjan » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:29 pm

cbcr wrote:
farmerjan wrote:One of my dairies has used a fair amount of montb and said the cows were too fat, yet they milked well and had good butterfat and no health issues.
I have no experience with Fleckvieh. I would not use shorthorn but mostly because again, there is no market for the calves.


The cows were not too fat! That is one of the thing with the Fleckvieh, Montbeliarde and Normande, they are what we call strength breeds. They are not frail like the Holstein, they have more condition and strength. Most dairy producers think that a cow has to be sharp and angular in order to milk. Not the case with these breeds at all.

Like I have mentioned in other posts, the Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde can produce right with their Holstein herdmates with better components, breed back quicker and have fewer health issues plus they can stay in the herd longer. Also they are more feed efficient.

All of these thing can add up to more potential income for producers.


I agree as far as the montB crosses being a "strength" breed cross. He just said they were too fat. I totally disagreed but.... I hate the "dairyness" of all these dairy breeds we have in the U.S. Part of what happened to the guernseys, they kept breeding them to be "tall and dairy" and they lost the older coarser but tougher genetics of the breed. They were not supposed to be milk wagons, with no components... they were supposed to be a bit bigger and rawboned and have plenty of fat and protein and the beta-carotene in their milk that gave it the distinctive "golden guernsey" yellow.
I thought the MontB would be a great one to use on my dairy crosses, then keep the females for breeding and raising some beef cross calves to beef out. I am going to probably try some MontB semen on some of mine along with the limi semen I have. I bought a huge amount of older genetics in semen from a fellow on here and see no reason not to use it on some of the beef cows and some on a few of my jersey beef crosses.
I am not a holstein lover, and right now they aren't worth the powder to blow them to he//. Pound prices are in the 30s to 50s.; for feeders. Really bad and nothing looking any better down the road.
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby cbcr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 pm

We are about ready to release a new program. But in doing some research we found some really interesting facts:

Dairy beef contributes almost 27% to the US beef supply, from cull cows and finished steers and heifers.

Dairy cattle produce a prime carcass 2 - 3 times the rate of beef breeds and is estimated that 30-40% of USDA Prime beef is from dairy.

Finished dairy steers and heifers produce a carcass that is about 5% less than a beef carcass. Most of this is due to the dairy animals have more guts and little more bone.

Once the hide comes off, you can't tell what breed of animal the meat was from.

So with this in mind it seems that the packers are making out like bandits when it comes to dairy beef. With the depressed dairy prices for milk right now, it seems to also affect the price paid for bottle calves. Those calves should be bringing more than what they are!
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby trin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:04 am

What Fleckvieh bull do you fill works very well?
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Son of Butch » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:55 am

Vanstein
Carcass 112 Fitness 108 Longevity 108 Fertility 101 stature 98 muscling 105 rump width 105 udder depth 108
https://ggresources.com/products/?route ... 4&breed=72

Hoeness PP (for more beef production)
Carcass 114 Fitness 103 Longevity 92 Fertility 122 stature 105 muscling 134 rump width 124 udder depth 107 adds teats
https://ggresources.com/products/?route ... 3&breed=72
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby trin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:23 pm

When getting Fleckvieh Semen can you get a better price on young bulls or bulls that are outdated? Would like to try a bull like Waldhoer.
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:40 am

Waldhoer
https://bigbeargenetics.com/shop/waldhoer

5,093 Waldhoer daughters in Germany averaged 17,570 lbs milk in 3rd lactation

Where are you going to buy semen?
Will you have an A.I. technician breed the cows for you or do it yourself?

edited to add: 'in Germany' to make post less offensive
Last edited by Son of Butch on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby cbcr » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:20 am

According to the CDCB (Council on Dairy Cattle Breeding)

BFG WALDHOER

11869 daughters in 4981 herds
averaging 25,009 lbs milk
averaging 964 lbs fat
averaging 803 lbs protein

An American Born bull from German genetics:

MJJ VAUGHN-ET

26 daughters in 7 herds
averaging 25,193 lbs milk
averaging 940 lbs fat
averaging 823 lbs protein

These are averages!
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Re: Fleckvieh, shorthorn Or Normande

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:50 pm

The numbers above are not actual averages per se ....
I believe you are quoting sire summary numbers which use estimated USA Mature Equivalent ave. based on 1st lactation
production and in some cases based on the first 100 days in milk of the first lactation for use in sire summaries.
Which is fine for comparing the genetic potential of individual cows of the Same Breed.
To compare one breed to another actual production is the better measure.

The AVERAGE actual production of all Fleckvieh cows registered in German Herd Book 16,970 lbs (source ADR 2018)
Under intensive management the TOP registered Fleckvieh herds in Germany averaged 22,000 lbs
The TOP Fleckvieh Herd in Germany averaged 26,570 lbs and the TOP cow 38,840 lbs (sired by Malibu)

Yes, Fleckvieh cows can produce 38,000 lbs of milk and Holsteins 77,000 lbs per lactation, but very few ever will.
BTW: Animals that are 3/4 Fleckvieh and 1/4 or less Red Holstein can be registered as purebred Fleckvieh.

I believe observing the pheno type of breeding animals becomes even more important when working with composite
breeds or breeding because of the increased variability of purebreds vs full bloods.

p.s.
I am not opposed to composite breeding and registration. More than 30 years ago I floated the question at a Guernsey Breeder meeting as a possible way of saving the Guernsey breed.... I was nearly stoned by the members. :)
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