How much gun control is needed?

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Bright Raven
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:38 pm

This is profoundly surprising. I never expected to see this from such a prominent position.

http://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reut ... SKBN1H323E

Excerpt

(Reuters) - A retired U.S. Supreme Court justice on Tuesday called for the repeal of the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, which gives Americans the right to keep and bear firearms, and the White House responded by reaffirming its support for the provision.

Former Justice John Paul Stevens, who sat on the country's highest court for 35 years before retiring in 2010, is one of the highest-profile legal figures to join the national debate on school shootings, gun violence and firearms ownership.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby sim.-ang.king » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:52 pm

The Constitution doesn't give you rights, it only a firms your already God given rights, and limits the rights of government.
Even though those which worship the false god of government, believe that "without government you would have no rights."
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby zirlottkim » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:15 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:The Constitution doesn't give you rights, it only a firms your already God given rights, and limits the rights of government.
Even though those which worship the false god of government, believe that "without government you would have no rights."

No one seems to agree with your statement but it's based on facts. I believe that individuals should, according to The Constitution, be able to possess arms equivalent to Military. I'm sure most would GASP at this idea but look at who the Founders just fought a bloody war against. Their previous government. If govt wants to ban certain weapons, govt should't be able to possess them either. Remember the Benjamin Franklin quote about giving up safety for Liberty? I wonder how many bank accounts would be seized by the IRS agents for tax evasion if there were missiles pointed at them? Are you really free to live your life as you wish? Or are you a slave being ruled but living with the false belief that you are free?
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:31 pm

zirlottkim wrote:No one seems to agree with your statement but it's based on facts. I believe that individuals should, according to The Constitution, be able to possess arms equivalent to Military. I'm sure most would GASP at this idea but look at who the Founders just fought a bloody war against. Their previous government. If govt wants to ban certain weapons, govt should't be able to possess them either. Remember the Benjamin Franklin quote about giving up safety for Liberty? I wonder how many bank accounts would be seized by the IRS agents for tax evasion if there were missiles pointed at them? Are you really free to live your life as you wish? Or are you a slave being ruled but living with the false belief that you are free?


There is no such state as "Freedom". If the IRS could not enforce against the person who would evade paying taxes, then no one would pay. If no one paid their taxes, government would totally collapse. It would be replaced by chaos. Is that what you are an advocate for? Chaos?
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby zirlottkim » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:46 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
zirlottkim wrote:No one seems to agree with your statement but it's based on facts. I believe that individuals should, according to The Constitution, be able to possess arms equivalent to Military. I'm sure most would GASP at this idea but look at who the Founders just fought a bloody war against. Their previous government. If govt wants to ban certain weapons, govt should't be able to possess them either. Remember the Benjamin Franklin quote about giving up safety for Liberty? I wonder how many bank accounts would be seized by the IRS agents for tax evasion if there were missiles pointed at them? Are you really free to live your life as you wish? Or are you a slave being ruled but living with the false belief that you are free?


There is no such state as "Freedom". If the IRS could not enforce against the person who would evade paying taxes, then no one would pay. If no one paid their taxes, government would totally collapse. It would be replaced by chaos. Is that what you are an advocate for? Chaos?

Pre 1913, there were no income taxes. Excise taxes yes, but not a 30% to 50% income tax. But there still seemed to be money for schools, roads, military,law enforcement, railroads, hospitals etc etc etc. Govt would not collapse. It would be limited though. No, I do not want chaos, but chaos will come eventually. Look at the current debt and tell me otherwise. When that financial chaos occurs, I sure want to have some guns at my side.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Caustic Burno » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:50 pm

zirlottkim wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:The Constitution doesn't give you rights, it only a firms your already God given rights, and limits the rights of government.
Even though those which worship the false god of government, believe that "without government you would have no rights."

No one seems to agree with your statement but it's based on facts. I believe that individuals should, according to The Constitution, be able to possess arms equivalent to Military. I'm sure most would GASP at this idea but look at who the Founders just fought a bloody war against. Their previous government. If govt wants to ban certain weapons, govt should't be able to possess them either. Remember the Benjamin Franklin quote about giving up safety for Liberty? I wonder how many bank accounts would be seized by the IRS agents for tax evasion if there were missiles pointed at them? Are you really free to live your life as you wish? Or are you a slave being ruled but living with the false belief that you are free?


Fought 8 years the first time 2 the second time to rid the yoke of England.
We lost lot of freedoms in the interpretation of the constitution in 1860. Then again under Woodrow Wilson was a slippery slope we never have gotten off of.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:08 pm

zirlottkim wrote:Pre 1913, there were no income taxes. Excise taxes yes, but not a 30% to 50% income tax. But there still seemed to be money for schools, roads, military,law enforcement, railroads, hospitals etc etc etc. Govt would not collapse. It would be limited though. No, I do not want chaos, but chaos will come eventually. Look at the current debt and tell me otherwise. When that financial chaos occurs, I sure want to have some guns at my side.

zirlottkim,

The concept is not changed by whether it is an income tax or an excise tax or a sales tax. If you are advocating that the government should not have the authority to collect whatever kind of tax a nation employs, then no one would pay taxes. In the absence of resources, a government would fail - no where in the world does government exist without resources. Thus, chaos or worse would replace government. The survival of the most ruthless would be the law of the land. No life would be worth the value of a baloney sandwich.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Caustic Burno » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:17 pm

Lot of difference in the way taxation is applied where all pay a share like sales or excise tax versus a few paying income.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby zirlottkim » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:22 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
zirlottkim wrote:Pre 1913, there were no income taxes. Excise taxes yes, but not a 30% to 50% income tax. But there still seemed to be money for schools, roads, military,law enforcement, railroads, hospitals etc etc etc. Govt would not collapse. It would be limited though. No, I do not want chaos, but chaos will come eventually. Look at the current debt and tell me otherwise. When that financial chaos occurs, I sure want to have some guns at my side.

zirlottkim,

The concept is not changed by whether it is an income tax or an excise tax or a sales tax. If you are advocating that the government should not have the authority to collect whatever kind of tax a nation employs, then no one would pay taxes. In the absence of resources, a government would fail - no where in the world does government exist without resources. Thus, chaos or worse would replace government. The survival of the most ruthless would be the law of the land. No life would be worth the value of a baloney sandwich.

The Founders put into the Constitution a means of tax collection. It did not include an income tax. Also included was the right to bear "ARMS". According to The Founders, the reason for protection of that right was to keep govt limited. How can an AR15 keep govt limited with the arsenal and might of today's military?
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:29 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:Lot of difference in the way taxation is applied where all pay ac share like sales or excise tax versus a few paying income.


Yes. But Zirlotkim was implying that citizens be armed at the same level as government for the purpose of resisting the enforcement of tax collection. His words were:

I wonder how many bank accounts would be seized by the IRS agents for tax evasion if there were missiles pointed at them?

That implies that an attempt to collect taxes could be thwarted by armed resistance. Obviously, that would end in a collapse of government. As much as government is a PITA, it beats chaos or survival of the most ruthless.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:36 pm

zirlottkim wrote:The Founders put into the Constitution a means of tax collection. It did not include an income tax. Also included was the right to bear "ARMS". According to The Founders, the reason for protection of that right was to keep govt limited. How can an AR15 keep govt limited with the arsenal and might of today's military?


Without regard to the manner of taxation, government has to have the authority to collect taxes and to be able to do so without a nuclear war with it's citizens. It is a farce to assume that citizens have nuclear capabilities. I don't think that is what was meant by the Founders to limit government.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Caustic Burno » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:42 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Lot of difference in the way taxation is applied where all pay ac share like sales or excise tax versus a few paying income.


Yes. But Zirlotkim was implying that citizens be armed at the same level as government for the purpose of resisting the enforcement of tax collection. His words were:

I wonder how many bank accounts would be seized by the IRS agents for tax evasion if there were missiles pointed at them?

That implies that an attempt to collect taxes could be thwarted by armed resistance. Obviously, that would end in a collapse of government. As much as government is a PITA, it beats chaos or survival of the most ruthless.



The citizens of 1776 were armed as well as the worlds greatest military at the time. The fight started before the declaration and the founding fathers put shall not be infringed as the only checkmate against a tyrannical government.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:31 am

Caustic Burno wrote:The citizens of 1776 were armed as well as the worlds greatest military at the time. The fight started before the declaration and the founding fathers put shall not be infringed as the only checkmate against a tyrannical government.


That is history. But in the modern world of today with nuclear capabilities, is it reasonable to suggest that the private citizens of the USA be as equally armed as our military? I am not sure Zirlotkim means that literally. I guess we need to ask him. He may have meant that rhetorically but it makes for good discussion.
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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby ddd75 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:16 am

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Re: How much gun control is needed?

Postby TexasBred » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:53 am

sim.-ang.king wrote:The Constitution doesn't give you rights, it only a firms your already God given rights, and limits the rights of government.
Even though those which worship the false god of government, believe that "without government you would have no rights."

Read it again Sam. Not all rights are God given.
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