Shorthorn AI sire help

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frieghttrain
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby frieghttrain » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:01 pm

Why Heisman if you want shorthorn use Gauge. Joe
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby Lucky_P » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:01 pm

From discussions with woodswalker... these heifers are on the small side...really quite small. And... he likes blue roans almost as much as a red roan...
First order of business is to get a live calf on the ground without killing the heifer - something she can mother and figure out what she needs to do to be a good cow. A 'coupon', if you will, for the chance to stay around to breed and calve out again.
Gauge is a pretty good calving ease bull, for his breed; but if you compare with the across-breed epds tables (and, yes, I know they're not perfect, but they're the best we've got to work with)... there's a significant difference in BW - and probably calving ease - between Gauge and an Angus or Red Angus bull with CED of 14 or higher.

Personally, I don't look for a first-timer to do anything but finish up with a live, weaned calf... if it's decent, so much the better, but I rarely evaluate a first-calf heifer based on what her first calf looks like... they just don't usually stack up that well against those from mature cows.

While I didn't specifically recommend Heisman - of the three high CED Angus bulls at SS that woodswalker was looking at, there were a number of factors that made him my pick of that bunch.
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby tamarack » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:57 pm

To bad cant get Irish Mist Return or SL Rockstar from HC they are good heifer bulls and should give roans these pic are when the Mist return and Rock star were calves
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All my Yesterday calves came out all red, nice calves just had to give a hand at birth.
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby woodswalker » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:12 am

Freight,

Yeah, my first priority is to get a live calf. With Heisman, I'm going with what I hope is a bull with the smallest birth weight I can get that still should pass on some maternal potential to a heifer calf. My heifers were out of first calf heifers themselves, and were weaned pretty darn small. I think it kind of stunted them, and I don't think they will ever be very big. If I can't get a live calf from one of the best calving ease bulls from the best calving ease breed, I might as well take up golf!

I do love roan shorthorns, and the calves like Tamarack posted would be a dream come true! A pretty blue roan heifer calf would be just as good or better too!

Lucky,

Thanks for all of your help and advice!

Tamarack,

Those are beautiful calves! I think I prefer the look of the darker roan, but they are both beautiful! Maybe next year, I'll explore other options for AI, and I'll definitely keep the HC sires in mind. Post any and all pictures you would like, I'll never get tired of looking at them! You have some awesome cattle!
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby Lucky_P » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:46 pm

I know several Shorthorn sires that ww could probably use, and likely without a problem - but Gauge isn't one of them, and they're not at Select Sires.

I'm a red cow man, and like Shorthorns... but would likely also be breeding some traditional-colored/marked Simmentals and Pinzgauer if the market wouldn't kill me for it. But in the end, I'm still pandering(mostly) to the demand for black hide - and if I needed a high CED Angus bull to successfully calve out some heifers the first go-round, it wouldn't kill me to do it (though I might try to get my mitts on some Above & Beyond (Red Angus) semen instead... but if I were limited to what the Select rep had in his tank... black wouldn't be the end of the world.
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby frieghttrain » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:56 pm

Watch your heifers carefully we used TC Thunder with 17 CED and our heifers calved like this two 10 two 11 one 15 days early. I's this just this bull or is it the more calving ease they have the more early they calve? They will be small alright to small for me but you're right number 1 priority is a live calf. :) Joe
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby Son of Butch » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:48 pm

frieghttrain wrote: is it the more calving ease they have the more early they calve?

Generally yes.
When you buy a calving ease bull you are buying a shorter gestation period, usually a few days less than breed average.
Rule of thumb.
calving ease = lower birth weights = fewer days in gestation
higher birth weights = gestation period longer than breed average
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby Lucky_P » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:35 am

Short gestation time probably does play a significant role with regard to CED for some sires, but body shape also is important. Easier for a heifer to deliver a 60 lb snake than a 60 lb bowling ball.

Used, with good success, for a number of years, a Shorthorn sire with very high CED... his average gestation length is 271 days; small, slender calves, easily born - I'm comfortable using that one on virtually ANY heifer.
Some years back, we used an Angus bull that was noted for high CED/low BW... and those calves usually just fell out looking like a drowned rabbit... about 2 weeks early... but they'd get up and nurse quickly - and if you monkeyed with them within the first 24 hrs, after they got dry, they'd run a mile away.
But, the first calf we had by that bull was out of a mature cow - and it was big, dead, 108 lb heifer. You've also gotta be cognizant of what's behind the cow... if she's got big BW close up in her ancestry, it can show up when you're not expecting it.
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby frieghttrain » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:32 am

Son of Butch wrote:
frieghttrain wrote: is it the more calving ease they have the more early they calve?

Generally yes.
When you buy a calving ease bull you are buying a shorter gestation period, usually a few days less than breed average.
Rule of thumb.
calving ease = lower birth weights = fewer days in gestation
higher birth weights = gestation period longer than breed average

Okay that's what I thought our heifers don't need calving ease that high. Joe
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby tamarack » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:43 pm

A red roan heifer calf off a Australian sire
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby Son of Butch » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:18 pm

woodswalker wrote:Yeah, my first priority is to get a live calf. If I can't get a live calf from one of the best calving ease bulls from the best calving ease breed, I might as well take up golf!

Excellent point and well said woodswalker :nod: I'm going to have to remember that line.
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby Draper » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:54 am

redcowsrule33 wrote:
woodswalker wrote:Anybody have any thoughts on going with a white bull? Aren't they homozygous for roaning? Would that give me better odds of roan calves?


Nope. 50% roan, 50% solid.



WRONG! White bulls are homozygous roan and will throw a Roan or double roan every single time. A white SH bull will never throw a solid red calf
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Re: Shorthorn AI sire help

Postby redcowsrule33 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:03 pm

Did I say solid RED? No. A white bull on roan heifers (which the OP had) would be either roan or white (double roan). A white bull will throw 100% roan on solid red heifers.
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