So many AI bulls available?

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True Grit Farms
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So many AI bulls available?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun May 06, 2018 7:18 pm

With so many producers using this bull on that cow and that bull on this cow, how can you ever get a uniform group of calves? And without a uniform group of calves there's no way to get a uniform group of cows. I can see where it wouldn't matter if your using ET. So I guess this is where the folks that line breed really shine and make hay?
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 06, 2018 7:33 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:With so many producers using this bull on that cow and that bull on this cow, how can you ever get a uniform group of calves? And without a uniform group of calves there's no way to get a uniform group of cows. I can see where it wouldn't matter if your using ET. So I guess this is where the folks that line breed really shine and make hay?


If you want every cow to look the same, GREAT. Personally, that is not my objective. I enjoy diversity. My objective is to tailor the bull to my cow. No line breeding here.

This is what freedom is about. If you want "cookie cutter" cows - may the bovine Gods smile on you. To each his own.
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun May 06, 2018 9:35 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:With so many producers using this bull on that cow and that bull on this cow, how can you ever get a uniform group of calves? And without a uniform group of calves there's no way to get a uniform group of cows. I can see where it wouldn't matter if your using ET. So I guess this is where the folks that line breed really shine and make hay?


If you want every cow to look the same, GREAT. Personally, that is not my objective. I enjoy diversity. My objective is to tailor the bull to my cow. No line breeding here.

This is what freedom is about. If you want "cookie cutter" cows - may the bovine Gods smile on you. To each his own.


I didn't think religion was allowed on this site? Every cattle class that I've ever attended preachs uniform groups of calves. We have a couple of sale barns that are putting together like groups of calves together for the producers and shipping pot loads to the feed yards. So far there's been around a $.20 premium per pound for the calves. All you need is to sign an affidavit stating that your calves are BQA qualified.
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby ez14. » Sun May 06, 2018 10:04 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:With so many producers using this bull on that cow and that bull on this cow, how can you ever get a uniform group of calves? And without a uniform group of calves there's no way to get a uniform group of cows. I can see where it wouldn't matter if your using ET. So I guess this is where the folks that line breed really shine and make hay?


If you want every cow to look the same, GREAT. Personally, that is not my objective. I enjoy diversity. My objective is to tailor the bull to my cow. No line breeding here.

This is what freedom is about. If you want "cookie cutter" cows - may the bovine Gods smile on you. To each his own.


I didn't think religion was allowed on this site? Every cattle class that I've ever attended preachs uniform groups of calves. We have a couple of sale barns that are putting together like groups of calves together for the producers and shipping pot loads to the feed yards. So far there's been around a $.20 premium per pound for the calves. All you need is to sign an affidavit stating that your calves are BQA qualified.
the way bright raven sells I don't think uniformity is very important so if he likes different that's fine for him I guess but not the best way for most of the people on this forum
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby jscunn » Sun May 06, 2018 10:12 pm

Vince,
Here is my take on the AI deal. First of all only use AI on the heifers and about a 1/3 of the cows, so most of the cows are bred to a single bull, the heifers are cleaned up to a different bull, plus some of the AI cow group.

I dont know about yours but my cows are all alittle different, for example some might need frame, some milk, some muscle shape, some need multiple things. I use AI to tailor to the little things those cows need. The AI bulls and the natural service bulls all have traits in common like size,shape,feet and attitude with small differences. I believe they will produce a ~ 6 Frame Steer that will go on feed to weigh 1350 lb at 14-16 months in my management program. They will also produce a female that will have the look, milk, and fertility to work for me or my customers.

I do also have a small linebreeding experiment to a bull that I think puts all of those things into one package, in 15 years I will let you know if I am right.. If I am wrong I will be happy to eat the mistakes.. LOL.
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby Bright Raven » Mon May 07, 2018 5:58 am

ez14. wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
I didn't think religion was allowed on this site? Every cattle class that I've ever attended preachs uniform groups of calves. We have a couple of sale barns that are putting together like groups of calves together for the producers and shipping pot loads to the feed yards. So far there's been around a $.20 premium per pound for the calves. All you need is to sign an affidavit stating that your calves are BQA qualified.
the way bright raven sells I don't think uniformity is very important so if he likes different that's fine for him I guess but not the best way for most of the people on this forum


Correct. If I were selling feeder calves and wanted to get the highest price per pound. I would buy a big framed black bull with moderate muscle for $1500 and put him on cows that starve their calves.
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon May 07, 2018 6:44 am

jscunn wrote:Vince,
Here is my take on the AI deal. First of all only use AI on the heifers and about a 1/3 of the cows, so most of the cows are bred to a single bull, the heifers are cleaned up to a different bull, plus some of the AI cow group.

I dont know about yours but my cows are all alittle different, for example some might need frame, some milk, some muscle shape, some need multiple things. I use AI to tailor to the little things those cows need. The AI bulls and the natural service bulls all have traits in common like size,shape,feet and attitude with small differences. I believe they will produce a ~ 6 Frame Steer that will go on feed to weigh 1350 lb at 14-16 months in my management program. They will also produce a female that will have the look, milk, and fertility to work for me or my customers.

I do also have a small linebreeding experiment to a bull that I think puts all of those things into one package, in 15 years I will let you know if I am right.. If I am wrong I will be happy to eat the mistakes.. LOL.


My cows are all over the place I definitely have diversity in my herd. Most are black, some are red, a few are smokey and a couple are white. But I still breed for uniformity by using a polled, homozygous black bull. I was hoping to get some constructive input like yours, thanks. I hope I'm around in 15 years to buy one of your LB bulls.
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby Bright Raven » Mon May 07, 2018 6:57 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
jscunn wrote:Vince,
Here is my take on the AI deal. First of all only use AI on the heifers and about a 1/3 of the cows, so most of the cows are bred to a single bull, the heifers are cleaned up to a different bull, plus some of the AI cow group.

I dont know about yours but my cows are all alittle different, for example some might need frame, some milk, some muscle shape, some need multiple things. I use AI to tailor to the little things those cows need. The AI bulls and the natural service bulls all have traits in common like size,shape,feet and attitude with small differences. I believe they will produce a ~ 6 Frame Steer that will go on feed to weigh 1350 lb at 14-16 months in my management program. They will also produce a female that will have the look, milk, and fertility to work for me or my customers.

I do also have a small linebreeding experiment to a bull that I think puts all of those things into one package, in 15 years I will let you know if I am right.. If I am wrong I will be happy to eat the mistakes.. LOL.


My cows are all over the place I definitely have diversity in my herd. Most are black, some are red, a few are smokey and a couple are white. But I still breed for uniformity by using a polled, homozygous black bull. I was hoping to get some constructive input like yours, thanks. I hope I'm around in 15 years to buy one of your LB bulls.


Your point is a good one Vince and jcunn's post is constructive. This is a good topic.

There is merit in the non-uniformity side of the debate. In Kentucky, the average producer has 20 head of cows and sells feeder calves at the local stockyards. The stockyards here want black hides draped on framey calves in the 550 to 650 weight. They don't seem to pay extra for muscle. The big guys get the advantage when they sell the sorted lots. For the average producer in Kentucky, I don't see uniformity making enough difference to chase it.
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby Ebenezer » Mon May 07, 2018 7:35 am

Using new AI bulls, and different ones and especially the unproven, new, great one, is like a hunter who likes to hunt many species of game. There is the thrill of the hunt, the seeking of the record book trophy, a need for new, a rush when things seem magical. Where AI is most useful, for the long run or a long term breeding program is in the proven sires that you know work in your environment regardless of how you sell or how different you want your cattle to be. But that is dull. The older bulls have proven EPDs and experienced opinions of offspring while the new ones rely on the genomic testing to try to get them close to the levels of the older bulls.

So, it is a game, no matter how you play: alike, different, outcross, linebreed. But the thing that is best is to win and the winning is based on the odds of knowing what the next card will be in cards or the tendency of the game. The new AI bulls are teen girls in mini skirts to an old married man. The low odds are the reason that Angus have plenty of bad feet, bad udders, bad disposition, low fertility, .. and weaning weights have not gone up appreciably on the national average in decades. Doesn't sound like a winning playbook to me unless it is all for a marketing reason away from the salebarn and meat industry. But, it is just money!
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Re: So many AI bulls available?

Postby jscunn » Mon May 07, 2018 6:28 pm

Vince,
I hope in 15 years we are just discussing the possiblity of bull buying. As Ebenezer says I have been guilty of "Trophy Hunting" but not too much maybe a couple of straws a year. Used 2 straws of Deer Valley Unique this year.. (Trophy hunting..)

I dont call myself a numbers chaser, but conversations with bull buyers at the bull test alot of them have "minimiums" for BW, WW,YW or some have mins for ribeye area, marbling or some other performance metric. None of them worry about feed efficiency which is something our bulls have been pretty good at there.. I have trying to use bulls that will help me meet those minimums. You have to at least have to keep from getting your bulls crossed off due low numbers. I know when I am looking for a bulls, I wont even look at a bull that doesnt meet my minimums.

What are everyone opinions about EPD minimums and what are yours>
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