AI Bulls--comments appreciated

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Son of Butch
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby Son of Butch » Wed May 09, 2018 12:29 am

Reading cattle genetics advertising is a bit like reading real estate advertising using terms to cover reality, ie...
Cozy = too small
Charming = too old
needs TLC = it's a dump
moderate = short/small cattle

Mature Height and Yearling Height are the 2 most heritable traits
MH and MW usually go hand in hand as does yearling height and yearling weight.
As a rule 'moderate' cattle = +$EN and elephant sized cattle = -$EN

breed average
yh .4
yw 90
mh .3
mw 27

top 25%
yh .6
yw 104
mh .5
mw 43

bottom 25%
yh .2
yw 75
mh .1
mw 10

Hoover Elation - short but heavier than expected for stature = short and wide
yh -.1 bottom 15%
yw 106 top 24%
mh .1 bottom 30%
mw 19 bottom 35%

Peyton
yh 1.0 top 3%
yw 178 through the roof and off the charts (139 yw is top 1%)
mh 1.2 cows taller than extreme top 1% of 1.1
mw 99 top 1% = 84 mw

Peyton's steers should be bell ringers, definitely great terminal sire potential, but his daughters as the saying goes
might eat you out of house and home.
Backbone Ranch should be using him on those Murray Greys of his to sell calves to the circus as baby elephants. :)
(charolais should give you greys to pass off as baby elephants too.)

Peyton is a WOW bull in extreme. But as ole Doc Harris used to post about cattle breeding, balance, balance, balance.
Beware of extremes.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby boondocks » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:36 pm

Wanted to update this thread. We ended up using Crouthamel Protocol, Baldridge Bronc, and Tehama Bonanza. We had excellent conception with Protocol (100% on first try), about average with Bronc, and Bonanza went 0/5 (no conceptions in 3 animals in good condition on TAI. Two we tried Bonanza again and still they didn't take; the third one we went with Bronc and she took). Now, of course it could be a lot of different factors but you better believe I will not use Bonanza again.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby wbvs58 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:04 am

Hard to maintain confidence when you get results like that. Where there is smoke there is fire I believe.

Ken
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby boondocks » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:11 pm

wbvs58 wrote:Hard to maintain confidence when you get results like that. Where there is smoke there is fire I believe.

Ken

Yup. Maybe he's got good swimmers but they didn't do well in transit/storage. But will stay away for sure.
It has my calving season spread back out after working really hard for a tight spring window.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby NEFarmwife » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:43 pm

It is my understanding that docility is not realized in a docile herd. The DOC score has always been an EPD I look at and I do believe has merit but if your herd is docile and you work them, not just send to pasture to see no human life... I don’t think you’ll see that doc score come to realization.

That is my interpretation. I wouldn’t mind a convo on that. We don’t tolerate bad behavior. If one of our cows gets hot, too spazzy, anxious, etc... when we work her, she’s gone. So that DOC has had a lot of credibility with me but I believe I read that DOC write up on angus site somewhere. And a 17? That’s really high! I believe you can go a lot lower than that and still have a great cow.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby Air gator » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:59 pm

Here's the thing about genetics: I don't believe if you breed ANYTHING you have an absolute split down the middle with 50 percent from each parent. I apologize for repeating myself but if you have 3 flushmates and do the genomic testing you will see they have different scores for different traits...including docility. Epds can give you an indication of what is POSSIBLE.
One bull calf I had an epd for YW in the 70s and his milk would have been about 21. With genomic testing his yearling epd went to 104 and his milk dropped to 8. The other thing is I would suggest you talk to people about EXT and/or Rampage.
What I hear about most of these bulls tagged with poor Docility scores is that some calves are "Dog Gentle" and some are (insert adjective of your choice). Charlo is a bull that people say can throw rank calves (I have no idea, my Charlo is in the tank)....look at the docility scores for the famous flush of SAV Raindance, Rainfall, Reign, President, etc. They don't all have the same docility score. Charlo's docility score is 2. Breed average used to be 12. Rainfall 23, Reign 17, Rainmaster 26, President 21, Raindance 13. So, if you took a chance using Charlo at a 2 for docility, only one calf would be below your cutoff of 17....and as you would expect...it might be the best calf of the flush.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby NEFarmwife » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:45 pm

Air gator wrote:Here's the thing about genetics: I don't believe if you breed ANYTHING you have an absolute split down the middle with 50 percent from each parent. I apologize for repeating myself but if you have 3 flushmates and do the genomic testing you will see they have different scores for different traits...including docility. Epds can give you an indication of what is POSSIBLE.
One bull calf I had an epd for YW in the 70s and his milk would have been about 21. With genomic testing his yearling epd went to 104 and his milk dropped to 8. The other thing is I would suggest you talk to people about EXT and/or Rampage.
What I hear about most of these bulls tagged with poor Docility scores is that some calves are "Dog Gentle" and some are (insert adjective of your choice). Charlo is a bull that people say can throw rank calves (I have no idea, my Charlo is in the tank)....look at the docility scores for the famous flush of SAV Raindance, Rainfall, Reign, President, etc. They don't all have the same docility score. Charlo's docility score is 2. Breed average used to be 12. Rainfall 23, Reign 17, Rainmaster 26, President 21, Raindance 13. So, if you took a chance using Charlo at a 2 for docility, only one calf would be below your cutoff of 17....and as you would expect...it might be the best calf of the flush.


Right. I try to explain it like your own offspring. I have a twin sister and most people don’t even realize we’re sisters. I prefer doing genetic testing for that reason. What did the cow inherit from who? And just because that cow took after her mom, doesn’t mean her calves will also. That’s why accuracy is important when looking at EPD’s. Some sires can deliver his genetics powerfully to his progeny. Likewise with dam.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby Air gator » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:00 pm

I think the Genomic testing is better than epds...unless you have REALLY high accuracy (they may be on par).
I think genomic testing gives you a jumpstart on improving your herd.
I say this because I tested 3 flushmates.
The milk score helps you a lot. There are so many bulls now that seem to be way above breed average or way below breed average for milk. If you choose the wrong bull because the epds for milk are the same for two sisters but the reality is that one cow produces a lot more milk than the other one....you could have a calf who turns into a cow you can't afford to feed.
If you have 3 sisters, how long would it take you to decide which one will have the most growth, fertility, milk, etc?
It would take quite a while for you to wean a few calves...and you could blame the bull or your grass or whatever. It is a leap of faith to use genomic testing and time will tell if we are right to trust the science or whether or not we will realize we messed up somewhere.
And by the way, there must be a rule that they can't change a milk epd by more than a certain number.
Take a moment to pull up the Rutherford Ranches Dispersal catalog from the Archived sale catalogs. Go all the way to the back and for all the current bulls that they are selling semen on they have the Genomic scores listed, as well as the epds.
All these bulls have been tested the same way and have been given a score. But, the epds and the genomic scores are not uniform or calibrated the same way. You would think that every bull with a 25 for milk would have the same milk epd but from what I saw that is not the case. They have the chart where you can see the most the epds can change from one accuracy to another. I'm not sure if that isn't the problem with regards to how much epds can be changed based on genomic scores.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby kilroy60 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:26 am

We have Peyton, Jindra Acclaim, and Black Magic in our tank that we will be using to flush in a few weeks.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby wbvs58 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:38 am

Boondocks, I am currently using Baldridge Compass, I wanted to use Bronc but he became unavailable here so went with his flush mate Compass. We will have to compare notes when we get their calves. I have EF Commando calves on the ground now, 3-4 months of age and am very happy with them but was looking at his son Bronc for just a bit more frame though nothing wrong with the Commando calves, they are nice and thick.

Ken
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby gizmom » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:40 am

I am going to sample Coleman Engage I ordered 10 straws. I like his pedigree and look. He should work really well on heifers and leave some nice females.

Gizmom
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby LCBulls » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:15 pm

gizmom wrote:I am going to sample Coleman Engage I ordered 10 straws. I like his pedigree and look. He should work really well on heifers and leave some nice females.

Gizmom


I think you will really like them. Some of the best heifer calves at Coleman’s production sale were sired by Engage. They were really nice. We own the Dam of Engage and her calves are awesome. Definitely the best calves at our place.
We have a Full Sister and brother to Engage and the heifer is probably the best we’ve ever had. The Bull is really nice also.
Her natural Bull calf by Cowboy Up is Incredible. His 205 WW ratio was 126
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby boondocks » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:57 am

wbvs58 wrote:Boondocks, I am currently using Baldridge Compass, I wanted to use Bronc but he became unavailable here so went with his flush mate Compass. We will have to compare notes when we get their calves. I have EF Commando calves on the ground now, 3-4 months of age and am very happy with them but was looking at his son Bronc for just a bit more frame though nothing wrong with the Commando calves, they are nice and thick.

Ken


Sounds good, Ken. Hope yours do well!
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby Luckiamute » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:31 pm

boondocks wrote:Wanted to update this thread. We ended up using Crouthamel Protocol, Baldridge Bronc, and Tehama Bonanza. We had excellent conception with Protocol (100% on first try), about average with Bronc, and Bonanza went 0/5 (no conceptions in 3 animals in good condition on TAI. Two we tried Bonanza again and still they didn't take; the third one we went with Bronc and she took). Now, of course it could be a lot of different factors but you better believe I will not use Bonanza again.

I am curious as to your reasons for using Crouthamel Protocol. I have been thinking of using him but don't know much about him other than what is in the Select Sires catalog and what I just read tonight in the Crouthamel Cattle Co. Fall Female Sale catalog. They seem to be marketing him as an "all purpose" sire who can produce bulls, steers for the feedlot and productive females.
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Re: AI Bulls--comments appreciated

Postby Son of Butch » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:52 am

I was running some NET Profit value numbers which included cost of semen assuming a 66.6% conception rate.

IF you are a cow/calf producer who sells their entire calf crop and selects very few replacement heifers to keep.
GAR Prophet at $20 from Select Sires is hard to beat, he really should be on most commercial cow/calf producers
short list as a best buy.
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