7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Stocker Steve » Fri May 25, 2018 3:11 pm

Stack um and wack um!
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Cdcollett » Sat May 26, 2018 10:26 am

One thing that seemed to come about from the defect hunt in the angus breed is the “outcross” sires that you see at the studs & a few more programs represented. It seems like to me there are a lot of directions you can go. All of them will have their ups and downs depending who and where you are but there are options.
To me it doesn’t matter if defects are caused or revealed by inbreeding. Either is a bad result that can be avoided by not inbreeding if you don’t have a compelling reason to do so.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Ebenezer » Sat May 26, 2018 12:42 pm

"To me it doesn’t matter if defects are caused or revealed by inbreeding." Just a matter of truth versus old tales of yore. What you can do with constant outcross is never know if you have genetic problems in your cattle. Probably why it is so handy and widespread.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby wbvs58 » Sat May 26, 2018 4:48 pm

Ebenezer wrote:"To me it doesn’t matter if defects are caused or revealed by inbreeding." Just a matter of truth versus old tales of yore. What you can do with constant outcross is never know if you have genetic problems in your cattle. Probably why it is so handy and widespread.


Some lines in the Angus breed have been heavily used for their attributes and genetic problems have cropped up but big deal, in this day and age they are very easy to manage and with testing and breeding away from the defects you very quickly drift away from having any carriers at very little financial cost and yet still can retain the attributes of those genetics you were chasing.

It seems that whenever a new defect comes out you have those people beating their chests bragging how they were too smart to get caught up with chasing those lines and their herd is free of those defects, well I say "bully" to them, I hope they get what they are looking for out of the genetics they are chasing.

I have yet to see any of these genetic defects have any significant effect on the actual end user, the commercial cattle producer.

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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Cdcollett » Sat May 26, 2018 6:37 pm

I had a lot of predestined in my herd. Loved the cows & even looked for more of that influence right when DD came out. I had countless opportunities for a DD calf but never had one. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist but linebreeding didn’t show me anything there but it did cost me because I either had to pay for testing or just use those cows for commercial cattle. I’m ok with outcrossing because I really don’t want to do that again. Am I likely to have recessive mutated genes in my herd due to that? May be. My whole herd won’t need tested for a defect when they do find one on a farm in Australia though. 036 was deemed defect free due to sire daughter makings. Something was still wrong so I don’t do it. Now if another breeder line breeds and gets lucky enough to create a line with all the economic and functional traits I’m after, I’d not hesitate to use that bull as an outcross.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Ebenezer » Sun May 27, 2018 7:47 am

"I have yet to see any of these genetic defects have any significant effect on the actual end user, the commercial cattle producer."
You might want to get out more or learn more of the details of the defects before you reach a firm opinion. Some of the most recent defect(s) included early embryonic death so that you and others never saw the problem but had late calving animals. But I know a number who had to scrap the bull, lost calves, culled all heifers as potential replacements, ... Mere late calving = lost income. And I do not believe that 036 got clear sailing in the USA. The genetic tests are probably more reliable than a 30 daughter test of the old way if that is the reference.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Nesikep » Sun May 27, 2018 2:13 pm

Ebenezer wrote:"I have yet to see any of these genetic defects have any significant effect on the actual end user, the commercial cattle producer."
You might want to get out more or learn more of the details of the defects before you reach a firm opinion. Some of the most recent defect(s) included early embryonic death so that you and others never saw the problem but had late calving animals. But I know a number who had to scrap the bull, lost calves, culled all heifers as potential replacements, ... Mere late calving = lost income. And I do not believe that 036 got clear sailing in the USA. The genetic tests are probably more reliable than a 30 daughter test of the old way if that is the reference.

The genetic tests are only good if you know what you're looking for.. you have to have an affected animal first to know what to look for,.. I don't think genetic tests will reveal a defect before that.. you still need the linebreeding first to find the issue, then you do genetic testing to see what is wrong, then you make a test that reveals it in carriers
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby wbvs58 » Sun May 27, 2018 7:54 pm

Ebenezer wrote:"I have yet to see any of these genetic defects have any significant effect on the actual end user, the commercial cattle producer."
You might want to get out more or learn more of the details of the defects before you reach a firm opinion. Some of the most recent defect(s) included early embryonic death so that you and others never saw the problem but had late calving animals. But I know a number who had to scrap the bull, lost calves, culled all heifers as potential replacements, ... Mere late calving = lost income. And I do not believe that 036 got clear sailing in the USA. The genetic tests are probably more reliable than a 30 daughter test of the old way if that is the reference.


Culling all heifers is just an unknowledgable over reaction. All these problems to date are recessive conditions so in a commercial herd if you did see a problem then it is easy to move away from it by just changing a bull, just another reason for the benefits of using pure bred registered bull especially Angus, it is very easy just to look up their genetic defect status.

As far as early embryonic deaths go I am assuming you are referring to the last defect DD, the actual origin going back to 036 and possibly longer. If you look at his date of birth 1990, it was 20 plus years before DD was discovered. If it was a problem to a commercial producer then it took them a bluddy long time to realise it was a problem. I know people who used 036 heavily and they consider his line to be amongst their most fertile cows. I only came into registered Angus a bit over 10 years ago at the end of the 036 era and my experience with them would confirm them as being very productive fertile cows.

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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Son of Butch » Mon May 28, 2018 12:03 am

As previously discussed the problem with DD as a genetic defect isn't the very rare DD calf born, it's the unseen
embryonic deaths it causes when crossed with another dd carrier.
Both Predestined and GAR 5050 dd carriers and in bottom 20% and 5% hp.
How much drag on fertility is caused by DD is unknown, but it does lower fertility.
036 is in bottom 30% hp, 25% lower than expected based on scrotal circumference.

Many loved 036 and Predestined daughters, but even in their hey-day they had a very low percentage of pathfinder
daughters, disproportionately so when compared to all of the bragging by their owners.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Ebenezer » Mon May 28, 2018 6:57 am

You cannot rewrite history without a skew. Have some semen on an 036 son if you'd like it. I've proven that he is a carrier, too. Just the facts, Mam. Keep talking the great fertility thing up too. Might make the semen worth more for me to sell to the unknowing! :-)
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Cdcollett » Tue May 29, 2018 9:57 pm

Enough with the imbreeding defect talk. What’s the future of the breed?
I’m interested in the Double Vision cattle. They seem to have some substance along with carcass quality, good feet and moderate calving ease as apposed to the extreme calving ease that I think has gone too far. With Third Dimension and Acclaim I think that line will continue to grow. There countless other lines. Thoughts?
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby wbvs58 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:24 am

A lot of people like to knock the breed but the feedlots still like to feed them. And over here I don't see any other breed ready to take over

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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby True Grit Farms » Wed May 30, 2018 4:53 am

Angus is leading the way in requirements to find defects and then doing something about them. I'm confident I can find a Angus bull that will do what I want. The other breeds seem to be worried more about the number registration$ than the defects in their breed.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby Gators Rule » Thu May 31, 2018 1:58 pm

TGF, I don't think there is one breed association that the number of new registrations is not their #1 goal, or measuring stick. Not saying associations don't provide solutions, but AAA, ASA, and the others measure themselves based on their new digits. Incidentally, is it possible that AAA is leading the way in requirements....because they are leading the way in the number of problems? I'm asking, not saying, as I have no idea what the angus requirements are, nor am I an expert on their problems. Haven't had a registered angus on the farm in 45-50 years, until last week. Now have 3.
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Re: 7 degrees of separation: The angus breed of the future?

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu May 31, 2018 2:09 pm

Gators Rule, I had two spotted calves using a Hereford bull on Simmental cows and the AHA didn't seem to care. Offered to send blood and hair samples, ended up just emailing a copy of the bull registration. And never heard a word back. And the ASA said the Hereford bull was the problem. I've never delt with the AAA yet but I'm fixing to with a bull issue.
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