Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:53 am

Bright Raven wrote:
elkwc wrote:It is hard for me to tell a lot by pictures but I would say he is above average for an Angus bull. At least in this area. He will likely sire some good calves for you. Again his bone is above average for the Angus I see. You don't see many big boned Angus. I have one and I see a few lines where they are. I like the big bone but it isn't a deal breaker with me.


I am glad you posted that. My cows are Simmental and the cannon bone is twice that big. Not just the bulls but even the cows. It is a difference in breeds I assume. I will say, I see the Boyd's Angus. Their Angus are muscular and heavy boned. People talk about no butt on Angus. I see a lot of their bulls with massive behinds.

Can't eat bone, maybe that's another reason Angus influenced calves bring the most at the sale barn.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:02 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
elkwc wrote:It is hard for me to tell a lot by pictures but I would say he is above average for an Angus bull. At least in this area. He will likely sire some good calves for you. Again his bone is above average for the Angus I see. You don't see many big boned Angus. I have one and I see a few lines where they are. I like the big bone but it isn't a deal breaker with me.


I am glad you posted that. My cows are Simmental and the cannon bone is twice that big. Not just the bulls but even the cows. It is a difference in breeds I assume. I will say, I see the Boyd's Angus. Their Angus are muscular and heavy boned. People talk about no butt on Angus. I see a lot of their bulls with massive behinds.

Can't eat bone, maybe that's another reason Angus influenced calves bring the most at the sale barn.


Cannot eat bone is right. Study anatomy and you will quickly see the relationship between bone and muscle. It takes bone mass for muscle insertion. If you ain't got mass - you ain't going to have as much muscle. Bone = muscle. Now: it is not an exact relationship. If the belly of the muscle is large, finer bone will support a quantity of more muscle. But it is a generally recognized relationship. Holds true in all mammals.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:09 am

Lrj505 wrote:I am going to venture out and ai about 10 of my best angus/black cows. I called Genex and they recommended Resource if I went with angus or upgrade for Simmental. My goals are most likely to keep the best bull calves one for me and a couple to sell to family, and sell the rest.


I don't think you will get three to five above average bulls out of AIing 10 black cows with unknow backgrounds.
You might get one keeper. You might not.
Need to revisit the goal.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Lrj505 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:57 am

Any recommendations as to where I can pick up some genetic powerhouse females ? Or should I just spend the cash and buy a bull? If so where ?
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:17 am

Lrj505 wrote:Any recommendations as to where I can pick up some genetic powerhouse females ? Or should I just spend the cash and buy a bull? If so where ?


"Genetic powerhouse females" is a matter of opinion in the eye of the beholder! BTW: That has a nice sound to it. I might use that in listing my heifers.

Restating your objective - you want a good bull. Is the bull you have pictured not to your satisfaction? If you are not producing seedstock, you may be fine with that bull on commercial cows. Establish your objectives first. List them based on your priorities.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Lrj505 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:06 am

I am good at selling cows lol. Started with four old commercial cows and have traded my way to 40 solid mouth cows. And only paid $1,300 for the bull. My other bull is a brangus nothing to talk about.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:22 am

I know the AI catalogs are tempting. But, I think they are just like dating web sites - - the pictures and weights are misleading. :nod:

Breeding AI to retain a bull for yourself is one thing. Selling several bulls to others is another seed stock kind of thing.

I have been retaining one fleshy bull calf at weaning for several years, and have been somewhat disappointed at how they developed. Could be a personal problem, could be too much in the wood pile, or could be both. I think you need to retain a small group, and continue to cull just like replacement heifers, to find one that looks great a year later. Then you will only have to wait 1.5 more years to see if he breds true...
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:42 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
I am glad you posted that. My cows are Simmental and the cannon bone is twice that big. Not just the bulls but even the cows. It is a difference in breeds I assume. I will say, I see the Boyd's Angus. Their Angus are muscular and heavy boned. People talk about no butt on Angus. I see a lot of their bulls with massive behinds.

Can't eat bone, maybe that's another reason Angus influenced calves bring the most at the sale barn.


Cannot eat bone is right. Study anatomy and you will quickly see the relationship between bone and muscle. It takes bone mass for muscle insertion. If you ain't got mass - you ain't going to have as much muscle. Bone = muscle. Now: it is not an exact relationship. If the belly of the muscle is large, finer bone will support a quantity of more muscle. But it is a generally recognized relationship. Holds true in all mammals.

I just study facts, bones are mass and add bulk, besides not tasting good. Aren't a lot of the double muscle breeds fine boned? I like to think before I make a blanket statement.
Have you ever wondered why Simmental cattle never amounted to much without Angus. A lot of supposedly Simmental breeders sell mostly SimAngus cattle and call themselves Simmental breeders.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:52 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Can't eat bone, maybe that's another reason Angus influenced calves bring the most at the sale barn.


Cannot eat bone is right. Study anatomy and you will quickly see the relationship between bone and muscle. It takes bone mass for muscle insertion. If you ain't got mass - you ain't going to have as much muscle. Bone = muscle. Now: it is not an exact relationship. If the belly of the muscle is large, finer bone will support a quantity of more muscle. But it is a generally recognized relationship. Holds true in all mammals.

I just study facts, bones are mass and add bulk, besides not tasting good. Aren't a lot of the double muscle breeds fine boned? I like to think before I make a blanket statement.
Have you ever wondered why Simmental cattle never amounted to much without Angus. A lot of supposedly Simmental breeders sell mostly SimAngus cattle and call themselves Simmental breeders.


"Heavy boned" correlates to more muscle, in GENERAL. Exceptions to everything. Muscle is what is eaten. If you want more muscle, you need the bone and frame to support it.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:22 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Cannot eat bone is right. Study anatomy and you will quickly see the relationship between bone and muscle. It takes bone mass for muscle insertion. If you ain't got mass - you ain't going to have as much muscle. Bone = muscle. Now: it is not an exact relationship. If the belly of the muscle is large, finer bone will support a quantity of more muscle. But it is a generally recognized relationship. Holds true in all mammals.

I just study facts, bones are mass and add bulk, besides not tasting good. Aren't a lot of the double muscle breeds fine boned? I like to think before I make a blanket statement.
Have you ever wondered why Simmental cattle never amounted to much without Angus. A lot of supposedly Simmental breeders sell mostly SimAngus cattle and call themselves Simmental breeders.


"Heavy boned" correlates to more muscle, in GENERAL. Exceptions to everything. Muscle is what is eaten. If you want more muscle, you need the bone and frame to support it.

How many full blood Simmental do you sell in a year?
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:37 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I just study facts, bones are mass and add bulk, besides not tasting good. Aren't a lot of the double muscle breeds fine boned? I like to think before I make a blanket statement.
Have you ever wondered why Simmental cattle never amounted to much without Angus. A lot of supposedly Simmental breeders sell mostly SimAngus cattle and call themselves Simmental breeders.


"Heavy boned" correlates to more muscle, in GENERAL. Exceptions to everything. Muscle is what is eaten. If you want more muscle, you need the bone and frame to support it.

How many full blood Simmental do you sell in a year?


At this moment, my 17 breds are mostly PB. I still have some percentage cattle. In each of those percentage animals the non-Simmental mix is Black Angus. I used mostly PB semen during my Thanksgiving to end of January breeding season. The exceptions were HPF Optimizer and Ironhide. Of the 17 calves due in September and October, 11 will be PB.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:40 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
"Heavy boned" correlates to more muscle, in GENERAL. Exceptions to everything. Muscle is what is eaten. If you want more muscle, you need the bone and frame to support it.

How many full blood Simmental do you sell in a year?


At this moment, my 17 breds are mostly PB. I still have some percentage cattle. In each of those percentage animals the non-Simmental mix is Black Angus. I used mostly PB semen during my November - January breeding season. The exceptions were HPF Optimizer and Ironhide. Of the 17 calves due in September and October, 11 will be PB.

I didn't say PB Simmental I said FULL blood.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:42 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:How many full blood Simmental do you sell in a year?


At this moment, my 17 breds are mostly PB. I still have some percentage cattle. In each of those percentage animals the non-Simmental mix is Black Angus. I used mostly PB semen during my November - January breeding season. The exceptions were HPF Optimizer and Ironhide. Of the 17 calves due in September and October, 11 will be PB.

I didn't say PB Simmental I said FULL blood.


None
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:37 pm

There is a positive correlation between muscle volume and bone mass. Muscle begins at an origin and attaches at an insertion. Generally, there are tendons at both ends. The more available bone mass, the more muscle that can be supported.

Obviously, there is a balance. Bone mass without corresponding muscle is a negative. That is the negative of dairy breeds - large bone size and bone mass but without corresponding muscle volume.

What breeders try to achieve is a balance in providing the carcass quality that packers demand.

Fundamentally, it is desirable to select enough bone and frame to produce an acceptable volume of muscle.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby elkwc » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:23 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
elkwc wrote:It is hard for me to tell a lot by pictures but I would say he is above average for an Angus bull. At least in this area. He will likely sire some good calves for you. Again his bone is above average for the Angus I see. You don't see many big boned Angus. I have one and I see a few lines where they are. I like the big bone but it isn't a deal breaker with me.


I am glad you posted that. My cows are Simmental and the cannon bone is twice that big. Not just the bulls but even the cows. It is a difference in breeds I assume. I will say, I see the Boyd's Angus. Their Angus are muscular and heavy boned. People talk about no butt on Angus. I see a lot of their bulls with massive behinds.


Bright Raven IMO some bone was lost on Angus and even Herefords in the selection for BW/CE. They lost a lot of the muscle also. And is why there were so many hatchet reared cattle with chicken bones. Then when some started adding muscle back for some reason they didn't get the corresponding needed bone. The crippled bull we sold this winter was IMO because he had more muscle and mass than he did bone structure. I prefer a big bone on my cattle. Like you said many times it correlates to more muscling and I've seen less structural issues when adequate bone was there. The Angus bull I raised from the bred registered Angus cow I bought has a big bone. One reason I kept him I hope he will add some bone to the herd.The bone comes from his mothers side. His granddam has produced herd sires that are in herds from western OK to Canada. That line passes on the bone and muscling. The old Angus or the 60's and 70's had more bone and muscling on a average basis. At least in this area. The horned Hereford bull we bought this spring has nice bone and muscling.
Bone and muscling are one reason I've been considering at least looking at a black Simmi when we buy our next bull. It will likely be a Simmi or another Hereford. Right now the good boned, good muscled Angus bulls are too high. Seems every breeder is looking for them.

IMO opinion the polled cattle in many instances are improving on the muscling part but have failed to add the needed bone. You find exceptions but the general rule IMO is that they need more bone for the muscle and mass they are carrying.
And the final reason I prefer bone is the feeder buyers like it on a calf and will pay for it. They say that it is one indicator of a calf that will feed well.
Last edited by elkwc on Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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