Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Silver » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:14 am

Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:33 am

Silver wrote:Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?


Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate. Skeletal muscle is attacked to bone. Example: thigh muscle, it can only be as long as the thigh bone. If the thigh bone is long, the muscle can be longer.

I must qualify that: a frame/bone can be large without the corresponding muscles being large. But conversely, if the frame is small, the size of the muscle is limited.

Our county cattle association has had a meat expert (he has a PhD in animal science and teaches at the University of Kentucky) present twice at our annual meeting. He is scheduled for the third time this fall - that is how well his presentation has been received.

In general - and I want to emphasis, the general - it takes bone and frame to support the muscle mass that is desirable.

The objective is to have adequate frame/bone and make the proper breeding choices to fill that frame with muscle mass.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:45 am

Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:20 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.


Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:35 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.


Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:41 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.


Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?


Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.

I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:46 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.

Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?


Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.

I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.

Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:01 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.


Of course. Vince, don't forget that every cow on the planet has its origins in wild aurochs (Bos primigenius). They all share an ancestral history (genotype). However, selection for desirable traits through breeding has resulted in subsets of the ancestral genotype (breeds).

So yes, the genotype of a dairy breed can evolve through human selection of desirable traits into a genotype more conducive to production of beef.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Silver » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:11 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Silver wrote:Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?


Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.


Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:16 pm

Silver wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Silver wrote:Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?


Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.


Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.


The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Silver » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:28 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Silver wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.


Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.


The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.


Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:03 pm

Silver wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Silver wrote:
Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.


The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.


Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)


Lol. I think I covered myself well saying it is not a DIRECT relationship without exception. But bone size does correlate to muscle mass. In general, there is greater potential to pack more muscle on a big bone than there is on a small bone.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Nesikep » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:02 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?


Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.

I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.

Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.

Simmental was never a "dairy" breed in it's phenotype.. they were always a beefy, milking cow.
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby Nesikep » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:06 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Gators Rule wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?


I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.

Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.

tail and chin scratches are cheaper than cubes :P
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Re: Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:12 pm

Nesikep wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Gators Rule wrote:
I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.

Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.

tail and chin scratches are cheaper than cubes :P

We only have a few older cows that will let you mess with them. When we first started fooling with cows most would let you pet them like a dog. But now it seems the more self sufficient our cows have become the less they like us.
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