FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

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Air gator
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FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Air gator » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:20 pm

Sav Resource, Sav Renown and Sav Recharge are all showing that they have genomic testing.
Rainfall and Raindance are NOT showing that.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby NEFarmwife » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:23 am

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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:09 pm

So if you believe a breeder has differing standards of selected info collected [cherry picking?] for breeding stock,
Do you still support their program with your $ by purchasing their product offerings even if it might be biased?
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby NEFarmwife » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:53 pm

Son of Butch wrote:So if you believe a breeder has differing standards of selected info collected [cherry picking?] for breeding stock,
Do you still support their program with your $ by purchasing their product offerings even if it might be biased?

Not much anymore. I have a lot more info that I don’t choose to share because I feel that information might hurt good people that weren’t even a part of the “rumors” and that is really all they are. But what we’re discussing here, is the fact that Schaff itself REFUSES to allow genomic testing on their new bulls and those being collected on.

As I lean more towards EPDs and get a better understanding, they become a much larger tool in deciding what we breed to. Of my purebred herd, I look at each individual cow and what would best suit her. Even in buying a new heifer or cow, if genomics haven’t been done, I mark it off my list.

The fact that Schaff chooses to not genetic test (previous article dated 2012 where they were interviewed, said they genomic test everything at birth)... why the change? Sure, collecting samples is another chore but when you’re making that kind of money, shouldn’t that be something they feel nescessary? What are they hiding? Bigger BW’s? Higher negative $ENs, etc...? And if for say, they aren’t reporting accurate birth weights, calving ease, yearling weights... are we really getting what we pay for?

Plenty of other seedstock out there. Not all honest but it’s getting a little easier to weed them out.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Till-Hill » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:07 pm

I had assumed AI sires had to be genomic tested? Donor cows?
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby NEFarmwife » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:40 pm

Till-Hill wrote:I had assumed AI sires had to be genomic tested? Donor cows?

Not sure what protocol is but for our donors, if they’re a potential carrier of something, we need to test them.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Air gator » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Till-Hill,
Bulls and donors need to be blood tested to confirm parents.

Butch,
I think if you see a SAV bull and like his looks and his pedigree...and then see his offspring selling well then you use him.
I bred to Resource because everyone who had calves out of him liked him and according to the Angus Association of all the bulls out there, he is the #1 bull for feet. His daughters are supposed to have nice udders as well.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Till-Hill » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:17 pm

Air gator wrote:Till-Hill,
Bulls and donors need to be blood tested to confirm parents.

Butch,
I think if you see a SAV bull and like his looks and his pedigree...and then see his offspring selling well then you use him.
I bred to Resource because everyone who had calves out of him liked him and according to the Angus Association of all the bulls out there, he is the #1 bull for feet. His daughters are supposed to have nice udders as well.

Why not make genomics test required for AI bulls and Donor females? If it's not required for them why the heck is it even a thing? AI studs/Seedstock guys don't trust it yet??!!
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby jscunn » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:02 pm

I had a female that dominated at weaning (666 # ratio 104) and yearling (970# ratio 117) with a 99 ratio for BW (76#). I DNA tested her and some select replacements she went from a YW EPD of 110 to 89 after the genomics (58 DNA for YW). Raised her first calf 684 # ratio 101 (heifer calf) and bred back on AI service. Picture perfect 3 yr old cow. Now imagine I paid $10,000 or more for her at weaning and tested her.. SAV doesnt want to chance it with a 5 figure bull sale average I would not dare test anything.

As far as AI bulls being tested what would that accomplish? If I owned Raindance there is ZERO chance I would gamble a big drop in EPDs because it might hurt my ability to recoop my investment.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Till-Hill » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:05 pm

jscunn wrote:I had a female that dominated at weaning (666 # ratio 104) and yearling (970# ratio 117) with a 99 ratio for BW (76#). I DNA tested her and some select replacements she went from a YW EPD of 110 to 89 after the genomics (58 DNA for YW). Raised her first calf 684 # ratio 101 (heifer calf) and bred back on AI service. Picture perfect 3 yr old cow. Now imagine I paid $10,000 or more for her at weaning and tested her.. SAV doesnt want to chance it with a 5 figure bull sale average I would not dare test anything.

As far as AI bulls being tested what would that accomplish? If I owned Raindance there is ZERO chance I would gamble a big drop in EPDs because it might hurt my ability to recoop my investment.
I agree 100%, I'd just like to know why the Angus association is ramming it down everyone's throats when nobody really trusts it except for the people who's cattle genomic tested really well
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby jscunn » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:10 pm

I agree. Kinda like the government we are paying the AAA for testing then every once in a while they recalibrate.. basically we are giving paying them to learn..
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Air gator » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:40 pm

I think the genomic testing will be more reliable with a higher percentage of animals tested.
You are absolutely correct. If I owned a bull that had the chance to be a lottery-ticket priced bull it would be too big a gamble to have him tested. There are some bulls out there that have really high epds for growth when they only weighed about 600 pounds at weaning themselves. That's without genomic testing as far as I know.

I believe that epds will be better with more animals genomic tested. Right now I believe that there are kinks but it is worth the investment/risk. With that being said, if you don't care for your animals then it doesn't matter what their epds/pedigree/ or genomic testing are.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby Hogtiming » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:00 pm

Hill doesn’t angus own agi? That maybe why they’re pushing it down everyone’s throats. It goes back to $$$$.
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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby gizmom » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:44 pm

I don’t blame Schaff for the reasons Jscunn mentioned. I don’t disagree with genomic testing but I also think the association is pushing it and it looks like giving it more weight than actual performance data. I don’t agree that carcass data that has been collected on literally thousands of calves utilizing ultra sound measurements performed by CUP technicians which are certified by the association are being set aside and replaced by genomics. Ok rant over.

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Re: FYI SAV bulls show Genomic Testing

Postby LCBulls » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:52 pm

I’ll just say one thing about Genomics and EPDs. They are a tool,that can be used to help improve certain traits.
They are also just Numbers that can have huge swings one way or another based on Genomic testing and as they are proven out over time.
We have used many of the recent Schaff bulls. (Final Answer, Resource, Renown, Registry, Seedstock, Raindance, President)
Also we have 4 year old Daughters of Coleman Charlo now owned partly by Schaff
One thing that most of them have in common is that they will not blow you away on paper. But they consistently rank near the top each calf crop for Structure, Foot Quality, Muscle shape, and Thickness.
There are as many things that can’t be measured by EPDs as there is for Certain Epd traits. We use Epds and Genomics, but are not just sorting bulls based on them exclusively. We believe that Balance is the hardest thing to breed for because most bulls at Stud are just purchased based only on “paper”
My 2 cents
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