Pictures by a Shyster

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:48 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:BTW - your group of multiplied calves look AWESOME!


Thank you. There is "honor among thieves".

:cboy:


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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:07 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:On the subject of branding, I guess it surprised me to hear Fire Sweep branded a purchased bull. In my mind, when I see a brand of a PB breeder, it stamps that animal as their breeding. Every breeder that I know that brands, uses it as recognition of their breeding herd, not as ownership like out West. I'm sure it's looked at differently by locations.


No. The bull belonged to me as the owner/breeder under the ASA registration. She ask if I wanted him branded with the Fire Sweep Brand. I said yes. He remained registered to me until he was sold at which time, I transferred the certificate to the buyer.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Fire Sweep Ranch » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm

A brand is simply used to identify an animal. People want a branded animal in this area, since theft is high. If the bull gets out, or is stolen, he is easier to identify with a permanent freeze brand. That is the only reason I branded Ron's bull.
EVERY animal, whether it is purchased or born here, gets our brand. Again, the brand proves ownership in the event of theft or loss.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:20 pm

Kris - I totally understand that. I was just pointing out that brands are not the norm out here. Rare that we see a brand - other than like HPF and they only branded what they were breeder.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by slick4591 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:On the subject of branding, I guess it surprised me to hear Fire Sweep branded a purchased bull. In my mind, when I see a brand of a PB breeder, it stamps that animal as their breeding. Every breeder that I know that brands, uses it as recognition of their breeding herd, not as ownership like out West. I'm sure it's looked at differently by locations.


I'm going with you on this because I believe when a person makes a decision to mate two animals the offspring become their genetics. In my case my herd mark gets tattooed on all of my registered calves.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Fire Sweep Ranch » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:30 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Kris - I totally understand that. I was just pointing out that brands are not the norm out here. Rare that we see a brand - other than like HPF and they only branded what they were breeder.


We had such a problem with theft a few years ago, the extension asked us to help put on a seminar on branding. Johnny Morris (Joplin Stockyards) provided the cattle and facility, and demonstrated burn branding. We demonstrated freeze branding. The extension estimated maybe two dozen people would show up; we had at least 100, and had to brand in shifts of 20 people or so people so all could see. The news even showed up, and it was on the 6PM news that night.
Johnny Morris brands all of his feeders he raises (thousands- most purchased at the sale barn) with a burn brand. MANY people out here brand, it is not abnormal. Those who do brand, brand all animals they own. It is not done for pride, but for proof of ownership (though I am proud of our stock).
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by elkwc » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:00 pm

I judge a bull by his type, structural soundness, bloodlines, ect not what brand in on his hip. I've seen top reputation brands on bulls I didn't like for one reason or another. I don't blame her for putting her brand on him. Like Nesi stated if the buyer looks at his papers he will know who the breeder was.

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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Bright Raven » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:49 am

Breeder versus Multiplier is a play on words.

Breeder: a person who breeds livestock, racehorses, other animals, or plants.

All breeders who increase the number of animals being raised are multipliers.

Regarding the "your genetics" concept. Another play on words. Who owns "genetics"? God, man, the bovine? If you want to be go to the extent of the concept - there are no breeders in North America except for those who raise Brahman cattle. Because all other breeds originated in the old world. Therefore, we are all using "their genetics".

This entire debate is a play on words. There are no metrics. Even if you read the books by some of these "wizened old breeders" - it is primarily anecdotal. They almost never provide data. We are just asked to trust in "their experiences as breeders". I am skeptical of anything that cannot be demonstrated by more than some wizened old breeder who simply says he "does it better".
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by True Grit Farms » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:12 am

Bright Raven wrote:Breeder versus Multiplier is a play on words.

Breeder: a person who breeds livestock, racehorses, other animals, or plants.

All breeders who increase the number of animals being raised are multipliers.

Regarding the "your genetics" concept. Another play on words. Who owns "genetics"? God, man, the bovine? If you want to be go to the extent of the concept - there are no breeders in North America except for those who raise Brahman cattle. Because all other breeds originated in the old world. Therefore, we are all using "their genetics".

This entire debate is a play on words. There are no metrics. Even if you read the books by some of these "great breeders" - it is primarily anecdotal. They almost never provide data. We are just asked to trust in "their experiences as breeders". I am skeptical of anything that cannot be demonstrated by more than some wizened old breeder who simply says he "does it better".

Don't believe nothing you hear or read, and only half of what you see. Your over thinking again. A breeder breeds what they feel works in their environment and will hopefully improve their genetics. A multiplier breeds towards trends and the market. Seems the multipliers are more money driven than the breeders. But there’s quite a few long time breeders that have become multipliers, causing the quality of their animals to diminish. You better look closely at the animals breeders are selling, because a multiplier can produce just as good an animal for a lot less money.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by ddd75 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:21 am

post up how well stone gate cattle do in the feed lot.. post up feed result trials... post up finished grade %


i'll wait.

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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Bright Raven » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:26 am

ddd75 wrote:post up how well stone gate cattle do in the feed lot.. post up feed result trials... post up finished grade %


i'll wait.


My good friend, I am not invested in that debate. Candidly, I hear good things about them. I cannot prove the issue one way or the other.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by ddd75 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:28 am

Bright Raven wrote:
ddd75 wrote:post up how well stone gate cattle do in the feed lot.. post up feed result trials... post up finished grade %


i'll wait.


My good friend, I am not invested in that debate. Candidly, I hear good things about them. I cannot prove the issue one way or the other.



obviously you are, or you wouldn't keep mentioning my comment.

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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Bright Raven » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:31 am

ddd75 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ddd75 wrote:post up how well stone gate cattle do in the feed lot.. post up feed result trials... post up finished grade %


i'll wait.


My good friend, I am not invested in that debate. Candidly, I hear good things about them. I cannot prove the issue one way or the other.



obviously you are, or you wouldn't keep mentioning my comment.


My apologies. I will not mention it again.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:54 am

"A breeder breeds what they feel works in their environment and will hopefully improve their genetics. A multiplier breeds towards trends and the market. Seems the multipliers are more money driven than the breeders. But there’s quite a few long time breeders that have become multipliers, causing the quality of their animals to diminish. You better look closely at the animals breeders are selling, because a multiplier can produce just as good an animal for a lot less money."
Grit - I think you are babbling to hear yourself talk.
First, if you are following "trends" (multiplier by your terms), then you are paying a whole lot more for semen than just using old homegrown genetics (breeder).
I shouldn't take your comments personally, but to me, as a BREEDER, they are insulting. I do use current AI bulls, but only the ones that fit what I am trying to produce - and they can be extremely costly. A breeder SHOULD stay current with trends, if they suit your breeding program and your BUYERS. Bottom line (which you make sounds like it's offensive) is to make MONEY, while we are having fun. :banana:
You are so intent on insulting BR, you are not making good sense.
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Re: Pictures by a Shyster

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:20 am

"I think if you want to be a breeder...get you a handful, or more, of nice heifers or cows. Use the bull of your choice...and cross within your group. Don't bring in outside genetics unless at critical times. Of course you gotta start that young...but otherwise you are just a multiplier."
IMO - dumb statement. You are talking in-breeding. A multiplier is someone that just goes thru the work of keeping papers, but doesn't pay any attention to pedigrees or quality traits. Like a dog "puppy mill". There is in-breeding and line-breeding. One is a screw up, the other is planned mating. You pick.
In your description, everyone that does not use a home grown bull is a puppy mill. :shock:
Let's agree to disagree.
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