Breeding Advice

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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Running R
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Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:06 am

Hi, new to the forum. Need some help.
Sold most of my cows and I am down to a few high quality females: couple of registered red angus, registered shorthorns, registered charolais , few good looking F1s and some killer F2s. Starting a modest herd to produce a limited number of colored calves.
We do our own AI-ing, here at our place.
I am fairly knowledgeable on genetics (retired veterinarian, etc, etc) but I would appreciate hearing from those with experience.
My first question: what is the optimal genotype (and phenotype) to cross on my RA cows to produce colored calves? I’m thinking roans and some of the bright orange parti-color (pied) I see every now and then.
Any advice or insight would be deeply appreciated.
Thanks, Pete



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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Lucky_P » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:00 pm

Pete,
Retired veterinarian here, as well...just liquidated our herd, completely.
Have done some crossbreeding with Shorthorn sites over AN and SimAngus cows over last 10 years.
You'd get killed on the roans and spots at the sale barns here...hit is bad enough on solid reds.
Kinda depends on what you're going for...club calves or commercial beef animals...
Cattle Visions has best selection of SH and club calf sires.
If I were going for roans out of RA cows, I'd look first at HP Manimal 1C.

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:15 pm

Thanks, Doc.
Our area does not suffer from Black Hide Derangement Syndrome. In fact, the markets in CO an WY are trending toward Red cows and red out-crosses. We transitioned from black cattle (BA and Simmental) because of it. The feeders (not so much the finishers) are telling us they want, good fleshed, moderate framed, red F1s. They love the heterosis.
My whole intent on this venture is to step back from the registered cattle rat-race and raise commercial stock to keep me from getting into too much trouble. We have strong sale yards in this area and do not take hits on red feeders. Anything unusual, and/or pretty goes for a premium to the small operator or club calf market.

Thanks for the tips; I'll get right on your referrals.

What are your recommendations for blue roan calves? My best cow is a blue roan heterozygous black (simmental x shorthorn) F1. I would love a blue calf out of her, but I gather that is a bit tricky.

Any thoughts on the orange "paints"?

Thanks for the help, Pete

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by lms0229 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:56 pm

I would suggest Normande. They are spotted with brindling inside their colored spots. Not many here in the US but you can get semen easily. If you want color Normande is the way to go in my opinion. Here is a picture of one of our heifer calves “Tiger Butter”.
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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by lms0229 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:59 pm

The Normande bull “Royal Holl”
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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Redgully » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:29 am

How about speckle park, i am a red poll breeder and now dabbling in speckle park. Have not got any crosses yet but excited to see what they can do. Seen some very impressive crosses with other breeds. Just concerned about growth rates so will have to work that out myself.

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Lucky_P » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:09 am

No experience with 'yellow paints' other than some of the old-style Simmental sires we used back in the 1980s. I've spent the last 20 years trying to breed out the color dilution and spot genes.
Your best shot for a blue roan calf out of that cow is a white bull - they're homozygous for the roaning trait. Still, you could also get a white or a red roan calf. It's a roll of the dice.

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:08 am

Not familiar with Normande. I will start my research and see where it takes me.
Thanks for the tip.
P

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:19 am

Thought about this but, again, I have no experiences here. I will plow into the research. I love the hides on these animals but know nothing else about them. Thanks for the tip.
Are their coats homozygous for blue roaning? Do you occasionally get different colored calves with a bl rn X bl rn?
Fascinating look!
Did you breed a bl rn to a red poll shorthorn? What would you like to see from that breeding?
Where did you get your semen (or bull)?
Thank you for your help, very interesting!
P

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:26 am

Lucky_P wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:09 am
No experience with 'yellow paints' other than some of the old-style Simmental sires we used back in the 1980s. I've spent the last 20 years trying to breed out the color dilution and spot genes.
Your best shot for a blue roan calf out of that cow is a white bull - they're homozygous for the roaning trait. Still, you could also get a white or a red roan calf. It's a roll of the dice.
Finally!!
I have spent considerable time reviewing coat color genetics, including the classic publications (Ibsen, Olson, et al). I have never seen anyone call white shorthorn bulls homozygous for roaning. I completely concur.
White colors seem to arise from genes in different ways depending on the breed. It is my opinion that dilution and roaning are dominant modifiers while spotting, belting, white facing and parti-coloring are specific alleles that are phenotypically dominant.
Got it with the white bull on my blue roan cow. That makes a lot of sense.
Do you consider all white shorthorn bulls to be homozygous white? Can they be heterozygous white with red in recession?
What breeds are you trying to get rid of dilution and spotting?
BTW, back when I was in college (in the 60s), most simmentals were red with and occasional brindle.
Thanks for the wisdom.
Pete

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:30 am

Redgully wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:29 am
How about speckle park, i am a red poll breeder and now dabbling in speckle park. Have not got any crosses yet but excited to see what they can do. Seen some very impressive crosses with other breeds. Just concerned about growth rates so will have to work that out myself.
Thought about this but, again, I have no experiences here. I will plow into the research. I love the hides on these animals but know nothing else about them. Thanks for the tip.
Are their coats homozygous for blue roaning? Do you occasionally get different colored calves with a bl rn X bl rn?
Fascinating look!
Did you breed a bl rn to a red poll shorthorn? What would you like to see from that breeding?
Where did you get your semen (or bull)?
Thank you for your help, very interesting!

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Boot Jack Bulls » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:32 am

On your RA and Char cows, I like a good Limi bull. We have had success on both crosses. The orange Char(and char F1s)XLimi calves were scale crushers and replacements made good mamas. LimiXRA is a sought after cross. The calves seem to be the best of both worlds. I have a RA bull sired by Hamley that has done phenomenal on our Limi cows and one of his purebred RA daughters that crosses well with my Limi bulls. In fact, that female just weaned off her first calf, a bull that may be the best bull I have ever raised. Moderate, but with a really good growth curve and as close to flawless phenotype on a young bull as I have seen in a while. I have no idea how the cross would work on Shorthorns....

HP Manimal was bred by a friend of mine. I like a lot of things about him. I'm not a huge fan of the bull's shoulder, but his calves seem to be better in that regard. I have also noticed, his offspring look very green as weanlings. Not that that's a bad thing (in fact, I prefer it that way!), but if you plan to sell clubbies every fall, it is worth noting.
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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:16 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:32 am
On your RA and Char cows, I like a good Limi bull. We have had success on both crosses. The orange Char(and char F1s)XLimi calves were scale crushers and replacements made good mamas. LimiXRA is a sought after cross. The calves seem to be the best of both worlds. I have a RA bull sired by Hamley that has done phenomenal on our Limi cows and one of his purebred RA daughters that crosses well with my Limi bulls. In fact, that female just weaned off her first calf, a bull that may be the best bull I have ever raised. Moderate, but with a really good growth curve and as close to flawless phenotype on a young bull as I have seen in a while. I have no idea how the cross would work on Shorthorns....

HP Manimal was bred by a friend of mine. I like a lot of things about him. I'm not a huge fan of the bull's shoulder, but his calves seem to be better in that regard. I have also noticed, his offspring look very green as weanlings. Not that that's a bad thing (in fact, I prefer it that way!), but if you plan to sell clubbies every fall, it is worth noting.
Interesting. Are you consistently getting the orange/apricot color out of your RA x Limi and Char x Limi F1 calves? Is it solid, roan or parti-colored? My experience with them is limited but I assume one looks for a homozygote for both red color and polling. Am I wrong? Are the semen registries consistent in determining heterozygous (for black) and/or polling?
What do your F2s look like when you go back to F1 Char x Limi?
Make no mistake, my cows (about 20…I’m detuning) are high-altitude, rugged, beef machines. Good milkers, heavy on docility. For me there is now enough butt, back, leg and front out there in the semen available to allow me to focus on color. My objective is to market a limited number of clubbies as weaners, solid beefers as replacements and the rest as feeders. Maybe hold a few for early feeding here on our place. Just trying to sneek in some premiums where I can.
Thanks for the interesting advice.
Pete

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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Boot Jack Bulls » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:11 pm

They were all solid peachy/blonde colored, using red Limi bulls. Pretty much the same results when we crossed them back to red Limis for "f2" cross. These were good, rugged commercial range cows brought in by the pot load from MT/WY/CO. We also had success with the one purebred show Char female we had that we crossed back onto the Limi bulls. Very typey calves, solid peaches and smokes (black Limi in that case). We did show steers out of these crosses, but only at a county fair level. I would say only 1 or 2 would have what it would have taken to compete at state fair here.

Given your goals, I would be tempted to pick out a handful of females to breed to a clubby or more show type bull and breed the rest to a more maternal or growth oriented bull. The goals you stated are too antogonistic to satisfy completely with one type of mating. A bull like Primo (angus) will give you show ring appeal and growth, and should make smokes on your chars and blue roans on your Shorthorns. He is proven to produce competitive cattle. He probably won't make scale crushing feeders for anything not going to a show ring, but I don't think they will be horrible on performance. I can't think of a Limi bull available on a national level at this time that will do everything you want either, as much as it pains me to say. I don't find many in the glossy mags that have the performance and phenotype I demand in one package. I have some in my pasture and some old ones in my tank, but I may be prejudiced in my opinion on those ones lol!
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Re: Breeding Advice

Post by Running R » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:11 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:11 pm
They were all solid peachy/blonde colored, using red Limi bulls. Pretty much the same results when we crossed them back to red Limis for "f2" cross. These were good, rugged commercial range cows brought in by the pot load from MT/WY/CO. We also had success with the one purebred show Char female we had that we crossed back onto the Limi bulls. Very typey calves, solid peaches and smokes (black Limi in that case). We did show steers out of these crosses, but only at a county fair level. I would say only 1 or 2 would have what it would have taken to compete at state fair here.

Given your goals, I would be tempted to pick out a handful of females to breed to a clubby or more show type bull and breed the rest to a more maternal or growth oriented bull. The goals you stated are too antogonistic to satisfy completely with one type of mating. A bull like Primo (angus) will give you show ring appeal and growth, and should make smokes on your chars and blue roans on your Shorthorns. He is proven to produce competitive cattle. He probably won't make scale crushing feeders for anything not going to a show ring, but I don't think they will be horrible on performance. I can't think of a Limi bull available on a national level at this time that will do everything you want either, as much as it pains me to say. I don't find many in the glossy mags that have the performance and phenotype I demand in one package. I have some in my pasture and some old ones in my tank, but I may be prejudiced in my opinion on those ones lol!
Great advice!!
I’m piggybacking my herd on the back of my son, a red angus seed stock producer. We AI ourselves multiple times with multiple synchings. It’s a pain in the be nice but well worth it down the line.
Thus, I have the luxury of selecting individual bulls from a galaxy of breeds and phenotypes to match my individual cows (I only have 20 presently). If they don’t stick they will be covered by my son’s RA bulls as pasture bred in the high country. He is a fanatic for genetics and EPDs so I have a killer red genome as a back-up that produces some serious heterotic calves. Our calves do well in the sale yard.
I have no intention of showing or competing at any level but over the years I have sold my roans and coloreds for a premium. There were three people in my region who were selling clubbies and they stopped doing it. (One died, one liquidated and the other lost interest.) The market here seems to be open and unexplored.
I will look back on Primo (I have a lot of experience with BA) and I will keep looking for that beefy Limi. Let me know if you have any of those ghosts you’d be willing to part with out of your secret tank!
Thank you for sharing, I have a much better perspective now.
Pete

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