Baldy calves

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by SPH » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:47 am

Ky hills wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:33 am


I agree with you on the subject of trying to argue breed purity. I have had a bull that I did not register but both his parents were registered Herefords. When bred to two certain cows that were unregistered but came from purebred stock would sometimes have calves with a white strip down their sides one had a full strip down both sides and a lot of his calves had quite a bit of white on them but still within the Hereford pattern on other cows including registered ones. I figured he and those two aforementioned cows had a touch of old time Simmental back in their pedigree somewhere. The bull also did not have the typical Hereford disposition either. As for the solid black calves I agree crossbred cows can throw a range of markings not consistent with true F1’s. I have experimented with some cross bred Hereford bulls and they will result in some solid or close to solid colored calves.
I am under the assumption that probably every breed has some extent of impurity somewhere at this point. Bulls and cows have been finding their ways into neighbors pastures since the beginning of time and they didn't have the DNA testing and parentage verification in the past that we do now that helps prevent some of these unintentional mistakes from happening. The one conspiracy I do not believe though is that there is a widespread issue of dishonest breeders knowingly fudging their registrations to pass off a crossbred as a purebred. I just don't buy that breeders who sell a lot of seedstock would want to risk their reputation by doing things like that.

Most if not all breeds have some kind of DNA testing protocols in place that would catch this now at least with bulls that must be tested before you can register any progeny from them. There is nothing we can do about mistakes that happened in the past before we had the technology we do today but I do think that breed associations are committed to constantly adjusting to the technology that is available to put in measures to protect the integrity of their breed going forward. If that means eventually you have to DNA test any animal you want to register then so be it but the costs and capacity associated with doing that many tests probably will take some time to ramp up the infrastructure so they can be efficiently done. There will always be those guys out there too that will complain about paying more to get testing done too because "we already pay too much to the association as it is" but IMO if you are raising and selling registered seedstock it's part of the business whether you like it or now. If you don't like the association then don't register your calves or pay dues and become a commercial breeder. Can't have your cake and eat it too if you want something to happen but aren't willing to comply with the changes too. Someone has to pay for it, they don't just do these things for free out of the kindness of their hearts.



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Re: Baldy calves

Post by Ky hills » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:17 am

SPH wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:47 am
Ky hills wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:33 am


I agree with you on the subject of trying to argue breed purity. I have had a bull that I did not register but both his parents were registered Herefords. When bred to two certain cows that were unregistered but came from purebred stock would sometimes have calves with a white strip down their sides one had a full strip down both sides and a lot of his calves had quite a bit of white on them but still within the Hereford pattern on other cows including registered ones. I figured he and those two aforementioned cows had a touch of old time Simmental back in their pedigree somewhere. The bull also did not have the typical Hereford disposition either. As for the solid black calves I agree crossbred cows can throw a range of markings not consistent with true F1’s. I have experimented with some cross bred Hereford bulls and they will result in some solid or close to solid colored calves.
I am under the assumption that probably every breed has some extent of impurity somewhere at this point. Bulls and cows have been finding their ways into neighbors pastures since the beginning of time and they didn't have the DNA testing and parentage verification in the past that we do now that helps prevent some of these unintentional mistakes from happening. The one conspiracy I do not believe though is that there is a widespread issue of dishonest breeders knowingly fudging their registrations to pass off a crossbred as a purebred. I just don't buy that breeders who sell a lot of seedstock would want to risk their reputation by doing things like that.

Most if not all breeds have some kind of DNA testing protocols in place that would catch this now at least with bulls that must be tested before you can register any progeny from them. There is nothing we can do about mistakes that happened in the past before we had the technology we do today but I do think that breed associations are committed to constantly adjusting to the technology that is available to put in measures to protect the integrity of their breed going forward. If that means eventually you have to DNA test any animal you want to register then so be it but the costs and capacity associated with doing that many tests probably will take some time to ramp up the infrastructure so they can be efficiently done. There will always be those guys out there too that will complain about paying more to get testing done too because "we already pay too much to the association as it is" but IMO if you are raising and selling registered seedstock it's part of the business whether you like it or now. If you don't like the association then don't register your calves or pay dues and become a commercial breeder. Can't have your cake and eat it too if you want something to happen but aren't willing to comply with the changes too. Someone has to pay for it, they don't just do these things for free out of the kindness of their hearts.
Again I believe you are correct that the vast majority of registered breeders would not knowingly introduce another breed and then present it as the original cattle, and I think DNA technology now would prevent that. I do how ever believe that the introduction of other breeds into most mainstream breeds on some level did occur. I just don’t buy the argument that some breeds went from 1000 lbs cows to 1800+ in a short time on a large scale by using outliers. The introduction of continental cattle changed the industry at that time, and then in years after that a rush to change back to a more moderate sized animal and also a more solid colored animal, I believe that outside influences occurred at both points. Does it matter? To some yes to others no. I really don’t look at it as the people were doing a sinister thing they were trying to adapt and be competitive to the changes taking place. Was it completely ethical if that was the case, no but there again the perceived need to quickly produce a product result that would have more marketing appeal is pretty tempting. I can’t say definitely that those thing happened but logically looking at it that is the most plausible scenario that I can see.

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:28 pm

KY Hill - very well said.
SPH - you are a little naive to think it was not done deliberately - in all the British breeds. My breed has always been open to crossbreeding, so no need to "cheat".
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Re: Baldy calves

Post by kentuckyguy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:10 pm

I have a hereford cow that throws calves without a solid white face. Probably some simmy somewhere in her.
This calf was out of a registered black angus bull.
Image
Here is this year’s calf out of a hereford bull
Image

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by dvcochran » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:13 am

If you planned to keep the calf as a replacement I get the concern. If you plan to feed out and sell, do you think the color matters very much as long as the calf models good and has all the markers the buyers are looking for?
The last three breeding cycles I have bread to a registered Simental bull that is red with a white face. Great bull with excellent traits and background. I raise mainly Angus & Angus/Simental cross but have a few cows that are half Angus/half Polled Herford. They drop a good calf but the colors have been odd on a few calf's. Here is the most recent calf off one of them. Good bodied calf and strong but ugly as sin to me. What do you think?
Image

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by RockinRB » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:16 am

dvcochran wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:13 am
If you planned to keep the calf as a replacement I get the concern. If you plan to feed out and sell, do you think the color matters very much as long as the calf models good and has all the markers the buyers are looking for?
The last three breeding cycles I have bread to a registered Simental bull that is red with a white face. Great bull with excellent traits and background. I raise mainly Angus & Angus/Simental cross but have a few cows that are half Angus/half Polled Herford. They drop a good calf but the colors have been odd on a few calf's. Here is the most recent calf off one of them. Good bodied calf and strong but ugly as sin to me. What do you think?
Image
I like those red white face/brockle face calves. Nothing wrong with em to me

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by elkwc » Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:45 pm

This will make the 3rd year we have used Hereford bulls on our mostly black cows. Have a few Hereford cows and a few RA. We only use the Hereford bulls on black cows. One of the reasons we started using Hereford bulls was to raise baldie heifers. Our intent was too keep some and sell the rest as breds or first calf pairs. We did use a Balancer bull 5 & 6 years ago so a few of our cows have a little Gelveigh in them. One of the Hereford bulls we have used
has sired a couple of solid calves and several with just a small snippett of white. Maybe a streak a1/4" wide and an inch long. The other Herefords have sired 100% baldies or mostly white face. I have had this discussion several times before. I feel the solid calves or mostly solid calves happen more frequently than we realize as many times a breeder either has Angus bulls or borders pastures with Angus so you just assume an Angus bred them. But when you have isolated pastures and any bull in the area is a Hereford it becomes more obvious. When you see it in more than one calf crop with a certain sire and not the other sires IMO it is apparent what the issue is. Baldy bred heifers or heifer pairs bring more here. So I feel I'm leaving money on the table with every solid calf. The AHA has acknowledged the issue. I have came to the point I don't care to discuss it anymore. Simpler to handle the issue myself and move on. I have discussed this with SPH and others. Have been called a liar by one person but not SPH. I visit these forums to share experiences and views and too learn. It isn't worth an argument, name calling and hard feelings. I would like to know what bloodlines the issue occurs in for my own selection purposes but have resigned myself to the fact it isn't going to happen. I can cull a bull when it happens and move on.

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by MurraysMutts » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:55 pm

Muddy wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:05 pm
Image
Bigger pic of the red calf
Somehow or nother I missed this.
Oughtta be easy remember who it is.
Just a dab of chrome! Hehe.
Nice
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Re: Baldy calves

Post by OzssieDave19 » Tue May 19, 2020 5:21 am

Some Angus cows (black) can have a recessive red gene. Add any red breed you can get a red. I have seen this before. I love cattle breeding so many variables. I have a Hereford/ Angus cow mated to a black and white speckle Park. I got a red roan calf. I was a bit disappointed but she has grown out nice.

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun May 24, 2020 11:10 am

OzssieDave19 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:21 am
Some Angus cows (black) can have a recessive red gene. Add any red breed you can get a red. I have seen this before. I love cattle breeding so many variables. I have a Hereford/ Angus cow mated to a black and white speckle Park. I got a red roan calf. I was a bit disappointed but she has grown out nice.
If you got a red roan calf out of your Speckle Park - you now know that your Park is carrying 1 red gene. You must inherit a red gene from BOTH sire & dam.
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Re: Baldy calves

Post by Rafter S » Sun May 24, 2020 5:34 pm

kentuckyguy wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:10 pm
I have a hereford cow that throws calves without a solid white face. Probably some simmy somewhere in her.
This calf was out of a registered black angus bull.
Image
Here is this year’s calf out of a hereford bull
Image
I'm not surprised that you have a Hereford cow that throws calves that don't have a solid white face, and I wouldn't assume that indicates some Simmental blooc. I've had many Hereford x Brangus calves that were either blaze-faced, like yours, or mottle-faced. Good-looking cow and calves, by the way, especially the Hereford calf.
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Re: Baldy calves

Post by Muddy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:46 am

Super late for this cow but she just had her fifth set of twins. Both are bulls
Image

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by MurraysMutts » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:14 am

Twins. Gotta love a mama that will raise em
Very nice.
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Re: Baldy calves

Post by BFE » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:31 pm

Muddy wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:46 am
Super late for this cow but she just had her fifth set of twins. Both are bulls
Image
Wow that's amazing.

My dad had a shorthorn back in the 70's that had three sets of twins in a row and raised them all. Lightning got her.

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Re: Baldy calves

Post by BFE » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:35 pm

kentuckyguy wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:10 pm
I have a hereford cow that throws calves without a solid white face. Probably some simmy somewhere in her.
This calf was out of a registered black angus bull.
Image
Here is this year’s calf out of a hereford bull
Image
I bought a herd of polled herefords years ago from an old man that never ran anything but herfs. Had one of them that always threw a solid black face calf out of black Simmental bulls. Maybe had a little white on the udder, but nowhere else.

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