What to look for when buying Brahman

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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 02, 2017 1:51 pm

Commercialfarmer wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Brahman cattle compete with Mexican cattle for the same market. There's no question that Brahman cattle work good for the producers in the south - southeast. You can post whatever and twist the facts, but the majority of the feedlots don't want heavily influenced Brahman cattle. And anyone that thinks different needs to take a road trip.


This is the truth. Free market is the deciding factor, not opinions.

There is an obvious place for them. And in the south, they will do more with their heat and insect tolerance. But there are also reasons that feedlot buyers don't pursue them.

I wish this wasn't so, there's no higher heterosis than indicus taurus crosses.

All comes down to numbers.


Basically, I said this on page 3.

Producers raise what they raise for many reasons. Charlie Boyd Sr. Loved his Hereford but Charlie Boyd Jr. raises Angus because that is what the market dictated. The market is the final word. A wise man listens.


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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 1:53 pm

Bright Raven wrote:How can you guys get so worked Up? This should be a rather mundane discussion. The subject is the merits of the Brahman breed. State you case and move on.


I'm not actually I think it's funny.
I do know how an LLC works it still has registered owners.
Like this
Depending on the state, the members can consist of a single individual (one owner), two or more individuals, corporations or other LLCs. Unlike shareholders in a corporation, LLCs are not taxed as a separate business entity. Instead, all profits and losses are "passed through" the business to each member of the LLC.
TT just has problems that Angus are only number one in his world,seems to be a problem with a majority in the breed.
I have no real breed loyalty except to what brings top dollar at the sale barn or as replacements. As I have said if it were Musk Ox I would be running them.
Raven I have owned most breed of bull over the last half century.
Currently have an Angus and he is the first and most likely the last he suffers in the heat.
Most likely go back to Brangus.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 02, 2017 1:54 pm

I acknowledge the merits of the Brahman Breed. Nevertheless, they are not for everyone. Each breed has its niche.

I am more concerned that none of the breeds will fare well with the coming "chickenization" of beef that CB mentioned.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Tue May 02, 2017 2:02 pm

Angus are only number one in MY world? Good gawd man, they are number one in the entire US of A not just my small corner of it.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 02, 2017 2:08 pm

Side note: CB, you have pointed out the "contamination" of the Angus breed.

Most of us understand the implications. However, in the context of how the Brahman breed is a recent invention of the Holy State of Texas (little humor :D ) and is a mix of three Asian Indian cattle:

Brahma cattle were produced by cross-breeding the Kankrej, Ongole, and the Gir (or Gyr) breeds of cattle

Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? BTW: Brahman is not a breed that has centuries of breeding isolated genetic pools.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 2:12 pm

Bright Raven wrote:I acknowledge the merits of the Brahman Breed. Nevertheless, they are not for everyone. Each breed has its niche.

I am more concerned that none of the breeds will fare well with the coming "chickenization" of beef that CB mentioned.



It is just a matter of time Food Safety will be the excuse to drive it to large corporations.
Just look at the slaughter plants and sale barns that have folded in the last decade due to low volume or regulations.
As the country continues toward urbanization the rural farmer is doomed.
Last published numbers 92% of the cattle owned in Texas are in herds of 35 or less. This will be the guy pressured out.
Just like the Eastern producers will go first as shipping will more cost prohibitive as the major feedlot consolidation continues in the central part of the country.
This doesn't even take into effect of boxed beef from every country under the sun guaranteed safe by the USDA.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Tue May 02, 2017 2:19 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Side note: CB, you have pointed out the "contamination" of the Angus breed.

Most of us understand the implications. However, in the context of how the Brahman breed is a recent invention of the Holy State of Texas (little humor :D ) and is a mix of three Asian Indian cattle:

Brahma cattle were produced by cross-breeding the Kankrej, Ongole, and the Gir (or Gyr) breeds of cattle

Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? BTW: Brahman is not a breed that has centuries of breeding isolated genetic pools.


Doubt he'll address your post.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 2:23 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Side note: CB, you have pointed out the "contamination" of the Angus breed.

Most of us understand the implications. However, in the context of how the Brahman breed is a recent invention of the Holy State of Texas (little humor :D ) and is a mix of three Asian Indian cattle:

Brahma cattle were produced by cross-breeding the Kankrej, Ongole, and the Gir (or Gyr) breeds of cattle

Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? BTW: Brahman is not a breed that has centuries of breeding isolated genetic pools.



Not really go back to when the Angus book was founded. We really don't know what is in that woodpile.

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fpi08

Early Scottish Cattle. Although little is known about the early origin of the cattle that later became known as the Aberdeen-Angus breed, it is thought that the improvement of the original stock found in the area began in the last half of the 18th century. The cattle found in northern Scotland were not of uniform color, and many of the cattle of the early days had varied color markings or broken color patterns. Many of the cattle were polled, but some few had horns. The characteristics we commonly call polled was often referred to in the old Scottish writings by the terms of "humble," "doddies," "humlies," or "homyl."
Foundation of the Breed
Two strains were used in the formation of what later became known s the Aberdeen-Angus breed of cattle. In the county of Angus, cattle had existed for some time that were known as Angus doddies. MacDonald and Sinclair quote the Rev. James Playfair as having written in 1797, "There are 1129 horned cattle of all ages and sexes in the parish. I have no other name to them; but many of them are dodded, wanting horns." This seems to be the first authentic reference to polled cattle in the county of Angus, apart from ancient sculptures. In the area of Aberdeenshire, other polled cattle were found and were called Buchan "humlies," Buchan being the principal agricultural district in Aberdeenshire. These cattle were apparently early valued as work oxen, as were most of the other strains of cattle that later acquired various breed names. MacDonald and Sinclair believed that polled cattle were found in Aberdeen in the 16th century, and stated: 2
The presence of polled cattle in Aberdeenshire 400 years ago is proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and it may generally be taked for granted that they were co-existent in various parts of northeastern Scotland, their purity being contingent on the degree of care exercised in breeding.
Improvement in Scottish Agriculture. Apparently little attention was given to the breeding of cattle before the middle of the 18th century, but in the last half of that century, great progress was made in Scottish agriculture. It is not strange that, as farming practices were improved, men likewise sought to improve the livestock on their farms. It was only natural that breeders, in improving their cattle, would but cattle of similar kinds from adjacent areas, and as a result, the cattle of the Angus doddie strain and the Buchan humlie strain were crossed. Crossing and recrossing these strains of cattle eventually led to a distinct breed that was not far different from either type, since the two strains were originally of rather similar type and color pattern.
angus-web-2.jpgThe Early Herds. By the beginning of the 19th century, the polled cattle of the Buchan district had attained considerable favor as market cattle for the production of carcass beef. Among the polled herds of Aberdeenshire that were famous for such production in the early 1800s were those of Messrs. Williamson of St. John’s Wells and Robert Walker of Wester Fintray. The Williamson herd later supplied the herd of Tillyfour and, through it, the Ballindalloch herd with some of their humlies. In Angus, the herds of William Fullerton, Lord Panmure, Lord Southesk, and Alexander Bowie contributed many of the Angus doddies that later became prominent in the breed. Robert Walker of Portlethen seems to have been the principal cattle breeder in Kincardineshire.
The Contribution of Hugh Watson. If any one person can be singled out as the founder of a breed of livestock, Hugh Watson of Keillor, who lived in the vale of Strathmore in Angus, is worthy of that distinction. If not the first real improver of Aberdeen-Angus cattle, he was certainly the most systematic and successful. Both his father and grandfather had been buyers and breeders of the Angus doddies. The family is known to have owned cattle as early as 1735. Hugh Watson was born in 1789 and, in 1808, at the time he was 19 years of age, he became a tenant at Keillor.
When Hugh Watson started his farming activities at Keillor, he received from his father’s herd six of the best and blackest cows, as well as a bull. That same summer, he visited some of the leading Scottish cattle markets and purchased the 10 best heifers and the best bull that he could find that showed characteristics of the Angus cattle that he was striving to breed. The females were of various colors, but the bull was black; Watson decided that the color of his herd should be black and he started selecting in that direction.
Mr. Watson’s favorite bull was Old Jock 126 (1), 3 who was awarded the number "1" in the Herd Book at the time it was founded. The bull was bred by Watson in 1842 and was sired by Grey-Breasted Jock 113 (2). The bull apparently was used very heavily in the herd from 1843 until 1852 and was awarded the sweepstakes for bulls at the Highland Society Show at Perth in 1852, when he was 11 years old.
A very famous cow also made considerable history in the herd at Keillor. This cow was Old Granny 125 (1), who was calved in 1824 and was killed by lightning when past 35 years of age. She is reported to have produced a total of 29 calves, 11 of which were registered in the Herd Book. A very large percentage of our living Aberdeen-Angus cattle trace to either Old Granny or Old Jock, or both of these very famous foundation animals, and most would trace many times if their pedigrees were extended to the foundation of the breed.
Hugh Watson practiced the fitting and showing of his cattle more than was common by other breeders of his day. He made his first exhibition at the Highland Agricultural Society Show at Perth in 1829. During his long show career, he is said to have won over 500 prizes with his cattle and did a great deal to increase the popularity of the black polled cattle over the British Isles.
Other Early Contributors. Lord Panmure established a herd of polled cattle in 1835, and not only operated a private herd but also encouraged his tenants to breed good doddies. William Fullerton, who was born in 1810, began to breed cattle in 1833. His most important early purchase was that of another Aberdeen cow named Black Meg. Black Meg 43 (766) is sometimes referred to as the founder of the breed, since more cattle trace to her than to any other female used in the origin of the breed. 4 She is the only cow to surpass Old Granny in this respect. Robert Walker of Porlethen founded his herd in 1818 and continued to breed cattle successfully until his death in 1874.
Shorthorn Breed Threatens the Aberdeen-Angus. In 1810, the Colling brothers of England sold the famous Shorthorn bull Comet at $5,000. The publicity resulting from this sale naturally spread throughout Scotland, and many breeders looked with favor upon the use of Shorthorn blood in improving the native cattle. Subsequently good herds of Shorthorn cattle were established in Scotland, and the cattle were used in the improvement of native stock. The use of the Shorthorn cattle on the black native cows was a very common practice of the period for the raising of commercial stock. This practice of crossbreeding threatened the Aberdeen-Angus breed with extinction.
It is often suggested that some Shorthorn blood found its way into the Aberdeen-Angus breed prior to the time the Herd Book was closed. Alexander Keith, secretary of the Aberdeen-Angus Cattle Society from 1944 to 1955, takes exception to this opinion by writing:
The statement has been frequently made that shorthorn blood was introduced into the Aberdeen-Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. There is no foundation whatever for such a statement. The tribes from which the Aberdeen-Angus breed were drawn were supplying England with beef cattle for generations before what became the beef Shorthorn was taken across the Border into Scotland and improved into what is known as the Scotch Shorthorn. Of the Aberdeen-Angus pioneers, Hugh Watson had a certain number of Shorthorn cattle, but it is quite evident from his won remarks and his insistence upon the blackness of his Aberdeen-Angus cattle that he would never have permitted mixing them. And McCombie: when one or two farmers introduced the Teeswater or Shorthorn breed into his neighborhood he drove them out by completely dominating the local shows with his Aberdeen-Angus black polls. The feeling of the early improvers of Aberdeen-Angus cattle may be gathered from the fact that my own grandfather, who was one of McCombie’s friends and associates, would not allow anything but a black beast on his farm and in his old age when I was a young boy he would insist that if I ever became a farmer and wished to be a successful feeder of cattle I must stick rigidly to the Blacks.
Improvement and Expansion of the Aberdeen-Angus
The Great Preserver. William McCombie of Tillyfour is regarded as the preserver and great improver of the Aberdeen-Angus breed. Fullerton and others had started the blending of the two types of cattle, which later became known as the Aberdeen-Angus, but this success was enlarged at Tillyfour. The master of Tillyfour was born in 1805 and died in the spring of 1880. Like his father before him, he had been a successful dealer in cattle before he began his operations in 1829 as a tenant farmer. Mr. McCombie is distinguished in the history of the Aberdeen-Angus breed because of his great foresight in planning matings, his careful management, his unparalleled success in the show ring, and in publicizing his famous cattle. Probably his crowning success in the show ring was at the great International Exposition held at Paris in 1878. There he won the first prize of $500 as an exhibitor of cattle from a foreign country and also the grand prize of $500 for the best group of beef-producing animals bred by any exhibitor.
angus-web-3.jpgNot only did Mr. McCombie show in breeding classes but he also exhibited in steer classes at the market shows. Probably the most famous steer that her produced was the famous show animal Black prince, who won at the Birmingham and Smithfield Shows in 1867 when he was four years of age. From the latter show, he was taken to Windsor Castle for the personal inspection of Queen Victoria, and later her Majesty accepted some Christmas beef from the carcass of the steer.
The English Crown has long been interested in livestock improvement, and Queen Victoria paid a personal visit to Tillyfour a year or two after the visit of the famous Black prince to the castle. Such a tribute to an outstanding breeder naturally attracted great attention to the already famous herd. McCombie had the further distinction of being the first tenant farmer in Scotland to be elected to the House of Commons.
According to the historian Sanders:
Aberdeen-Angus history may fairly be divided into two periods; the first, before William McCombie’s time; the second, since. That is as good as any other way of saying that the Master of Tillyfour-recognized cattle king of his day and generation in Aberdeen-Angusshire and of all Scotland-stands a very colossus upon any canvas which accurately portrays the original arrival of black cattle as a factor of world importance in the field of prime beef production.
William McCombie always had utility in mind in producing his cattle, and his ideal beast seems to have been one with size, symmetry, and balance, yet with strength of constitution and disposition to accumulate flesh.
Important Developments at Tillyfour. Although his original stock was gathered from many sources and his purchases were many, Mr. McCombie’s outstanding acquisition was probably the good yearling heifer Queen Mother 41 (348) at the Ardestie Sale.
Mr. McCombie purchased the bull Hanton 80 (228), calved in 1853, from the breeder Alexander Bowie. This bull was a grandson of Old Jock 126 (1) and was said to have weighed a ton at maturity. Despite the fact that he had scurs, he was a great show bull and was exhibited widely by Me. McCombie. The bull’s success, however, was more pronounced in the breeding pen, and he probably made his greatest contribution to the breed through his double grandson, Black Prince of Tillyfour 77 (366), calved in 1860. Few, if any, cattle of the breed are living today that do not trace at least a dozen times to Black Prince of Tillyfour. It is difficult to say how much contribution Mr. McCombie made to the Aberdeen-Angus breed through his successes in the show ring, but he outstripped all of his competition in England, Scotland, and France. Consequently, the name of Aberdeen-Angus became known on an international basis. It was on the farm of William McCombie that the Aberdeen-Angus breed really took shape, because prior to his time, people spoke of the cattle as Aberdeen and Angus. In his herd was found the justification for leaving out the "and" and replacing it with the hyphen that has become familiar. At Tillyfour, the master breeder molded the two original strains into one improved breed superior to either of its components. There is no question but that the "preserver" of the Angus breed left the breed far better than he found it.
The Ballindalloch Herd. Another very famous Aberdeen-Angus herd in Scotland was that of Ballindalloch, but the origin of this herd is lost in the mists of antiquity. It was probably first founded by Sir John MacPherson Grant, but it was not until the time the farm came into the hands of Sir George, a son, that systematic breeding was started. Sir George drew heavily on Tillyfour cattle in establishing his herd.
It was very fortunate for the breed that the Ballindalloch herd was kept in the family for over three generations. The main herd was dispersed on August 8, 1934, but it had already left a great imprint on the Aberdeen-Angus world. Not only was the Ballindalloch herd the outstanding herd in Scotland but it mush also be given credit for having furnished a great deal of very valuable foundation stock to the herds of the United States and other foreign countries.
The First Angus In America. When George Grant transported four Angus bulls from Scotland to the middle of the Kansas prairie in 1873, they were part of the Scotsman's dream to found a colony of wealthy, stock-raising Britishers. Grant died five years later, and many of the settlers at his Victoria, Kansas colony later returned to their homeland. However, these four Angus bulls, probably from the herd of George Brown of Westertown, Fochabers, Scotland, made a lasting impression on the U.S. cattle industry.
When two of the George Grant bulls were exhibited in the fall of 1873 at the Kansas City (Missouri) Livestock Exposition, some considered them "freaks" because of their polled (naturally hornless) heads and solid black color (Shorthorns were then the dominant breed.) Grant, a forward thinker, crossed the bulls with native Texas longhorn cows, producing a large number of hornless black calves that survived well on the winter range. The Angus crosses wintered better and weighed more the next spring, the first demonstration of the breed's value in their new homeland.
Early Importers and Breeders. The first great herds of Angus beef cattle in America were built up by purchasing stock directly from Scotland. Twelve hundred cattle alone were imported, mostly to the Midwest, in a period of explosive growth between 1878 and 1883 . Over the next quarter of a century these early owners, in turn, helped start other herds by breeding, showing, and selling their registered stock.
Angus Breed Associations and Registries

So really no one knows what all is in the woodpile of either before the late 1800's No one is real sure what all Shanghi put in the woodpile besides imported Brahman
After that standardization of the breeds started.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 2:29 pm

With all the above said no one really knows before the late 19th early 20 th century was going on in the breeds.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 2:35 pm

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Side note: CB, you have pointed out the "contamination" of the Angus breed.

Most of us understand the implications. However, in the context of how the Brahman breed is a recent invention of the Holy State of Texas (little humor :D ) and is a mix of three Asian Indian cattle:

Brahma cattle were produced by cross-breeding the Kankrej, Ongole, and the Gir (or Gyr) breeds of cattle

Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? BTW: Brahman is not a breed that has centuries of breeding isolated genetic pools.


Doubt he'll address your post.


That is not all that went into creating them as no one knows for sure what all Shanghi Pierce bred them to trying to get animals resist to tick fever.
Early 1920's the herd book was established

Just like the Beefmaster created by Lasiter according to him is 50/25/25
Brahman/Hereford/SH no one really knows.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue May 02, 2017 2:35 pm

TT just has problems that Angus are only number one in his world,seems to be a problem with a majority in the breed.
I have no real breed loyalty except to what brings top dollar at the sale barn or as replacements.

Some folks can't see the forest for the trees. Everyone I know that deals in Brahman influenced cattle want heifer calves to sell or keep as replacements, I wonder why?
I'll tell you why, good Brahman crossed heifers sell at the top of the market. And the only thing that sells lower than a steer calf with heavy Brahman influence is a longhorn calf. I see this on a weekly basis at two different sale barns.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 2:41 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:TT just has problems that Angus are only number one in his world,seems to be a problem with a majority in the breed.
I have no real breed loyalty except to what brings top dollar at the sale barn or as replacements.

Some folks can't see the forest for the trees. Everyone I know that deals in Brahman influenced cattle want heifer calves to sell or keep as replacements, I wonder why?
I'll tell you why, good Brahman crossed heifers sell at the top of the market. And the only thing that sells lower than a steer calf with heavy Brahman influence is a longhorn calf. I see this on a weekly basis at two different sale barns.
I live by the motto "don't believe nothing you hear or read, and only half of what you see"

A good Beefmaster or Brangus steer calf here will compete with the best of them. A tiger striped won't.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 02, 2017 2:45 pm

The objective of breeding is to obtain a combination of desirable traits in a "breed" or lineage of animals.

Why is it "wrong" to improve the traits of a breed by introducing genes that accentuate or compliment the desirable traits of a breed?

CB, if I understand some of your past comments and comments made by others, you consider this effort sacreligious. Why? Isn't it desirable to improve a breed as the industry demands?

Why is the AAA criticized for enhancing the traits of the Angus breed if that is what the membership and industry desires?

Please don't be offended but some of the criticisms users lay at the altar of a breed seems to be motivated by envy, jealousy or "sour grapes".
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue May 02, 2017 4:37 pm

Bright Raven wrote:The objective of breeding is to obtain a combination of desirable traits in a "breed" or lineage of animals.

Why is it "wrong" to improve the traits of a breed by introducing genes that accentuate or compliment the desirable traits of a breed?

CB, if I understand some of your past comments and comments made by others, you consider this effort sacreligious. Why? Isn't it desirable to improve a breed as the industry demands?

Why is the AAA criticized for enhancing the traits of the Angus breed if that is what the membership and industry desires?

Please don't be offended but some of the criticisms users lay at the altar of a breed seems to be motivated by envy, jealousy or "sour grapes".



I don't have problem with trying to improve the breed. I have a problem with holier than thou.
I do have a problem of turning the cattle breeds into a cesspool of Angus genetics and calling it something that is not.
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Re: What to look for when buying Brahman

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 02, 2017 4:41 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:The objective of breeding is to obtain a combination of desirable traits in a "breed" or lineage of animals.

Why is it "wrong" to improve the traits of a breed by introducing genes that accentuate or compliment the desirable traits of a breed?

CB, if I understand some of your past comments and comments made by others, you consider this effort sacreligious. Why? Isn't it desirable to improve a breed as the industry demands?

Why is the AAA criticized for enhancing the traits of the Angus breed if that is what the membership and industry desires?

Please don't be offended but some of the criticisms users lay at the altar of a breed seems to be motivated by envy, jealousy or "sour grapes".



I don't have problem with trying to improve the breed. I have a problem with holier than thou.
I do have a problem of turning the cattle breeds into a cesspool of Angus genetics and calling it something that is not.


I agree with that. I wanted to understand that you are not opposed to going outside the established gene pool if it improves the traits of the breed.

Thanks CB. I will confess, until this thread got me reading, I did not know that the Brahman breed had so much merit.

PS: Ignore TT, he is trouble.
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