Terminal or Maternal

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

Muddy
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Muddy » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:27 pm

Many people are complaining about Black Angus cattle not being good performers and that they are lacking muscles. Balancers and SimAngus are mighty popular in this area so they add more muscle in the calves. Yeah yeah I know Angus are mighty popular, but Angus cross calves are topping the sales here, unlike the straightbred Angus calves. The people also complained about their average wean weight of straightbred Angus calves being so low.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby ALACOWMAN » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:34 pm

Muddy wrote:Many people are complaining about Black Angus cattle not being good performers and that they are lacking muscles. Balancers and SimAngus are mighty popular in this area so they add more muscle in the calves. Yeah yeah I know Angus are mighty popular, but Angus cross calves are topping the sales here, unlike the straightbred Angus calves. The people also complained about their average wean weight of straightbred Angus calves being so low.

Selection, Is the biggest problem with that.. And the fact that their a Maternal breed... They want those low birthweights, and overlook Ever other trait...
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Muddy » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:39 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Muddy wrote:Many people are complaining about Black Angus cattle not being good performers and that they are lacking muscles. Balancers and SimAngus are mighty popular in this area so they add more muscle in the calves. Yeah yeah I know Angus are mighty popular, but Angus cross calves are topping the sales here, unlike the straightbred Angus calves. The people also complained about their average wean weight of straightbred Angus calves being so low.

Selection, Is the biggest problem with that.. And the fact that their a Maternal breed... They want those low birthweights, and overlook Ever other trait...

Yup, and you have hard doing Angus cows and hatchet azzed bulls. Poor quality Angus cattle are what drive the people towards to the other breeds and raises them. I talked to a Beefmaster breeder in Minnesota, and he doesn't like the Angus average weanweight so he ran his Beefmaster bull on his Angus cows. His BM x BA calves topped the sales for three years straight and has 100-200lbs extra in calves before they are 7 months old.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:23 pm

Single trait selection has had negative effects on several breeds. In the effort to attain low BW's many have lost muscling and growth. The same can be said about those who have selected for carcass traits. Many breeders using AI sires have experienced structural soundness issues. Those who run cattle in rough country that require a cow to travel notice these issues more. Angus aren't the only breed with issues. There are certain bloodlines and breeders who still breed straight bred Angus that have muscling, growth and good carcass traits. Another trait that many breeds have lost is longtivity. Certain Hereford and Angus bloodlines still have it.and why we are focusing on that cross.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Muddy » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:08 pm

elkwc wrote:Single trait selection has had negative effects on several breeds. In the effort to attain low BW's many have lost muscling and growth. The same can be said about those who have selected for carcass traits. Many breeders using AI sires have experienced structural soundness issues. Those who run cattle in rough country that require a cow to travel notice these issues more. Angus aren't the only breed with issues. There are certain bloodlines and breeders who still breed straight bred Angus that have muscling, growth and good carcass traits. Another trait that many breeds have lost is longtivity. Certain Hereford and Angus bloodlines still have it.and why we are focusing on that cross.

I dunno about you, but it seems Angus has more issues than any breeds other than Hereford. Maybe that's because Angus cattle are dirty common than most breeds. Not lot of Angus have good longevity. Our Galloway x Angus cross cows are still in excellent condition in their teen's but our straight Angus cows are fall apart after their 10th bday. I noticed that Black Angus cattle have poor dispositions on average compared to most breeds. The Beefmaster breeder I mentioned, also seek out for better longevity and better disposition traits, something that most Black Angus doesn't have.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby ALACOWMAN » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:53 am

When you got ""multiplied millions""" of breeders all over this country breeding them. Every one of them with different ideas,. There's gonna be problems...reason you see that calf that was raised in the back pasture, that turned out better then anything you could intentionally raise..
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:59 pm

Muddy wrote:
elkwc wrote:Single trait selection has had negative effects on several breeds. In the effort to attain low BW's many have lost muscling and growth. The same can be said about those who have selected for carcass traits. Many breeders using AI sires have experienced structural soundness issues. Those who run cattle in rough country that require a cow to travel notice these issues more. Angus aren't the only breed with issues. There are certain bloodlines and breeders who still breed straight bred Angus that have muscling, growth and good carcass traits. Another trait that many breeds have lost is longtivity. Certain Hereford and Angus bloodlines still have it.and why we are focusing on that cross.

I dunno about you, but it seems Angus has more issues than any breeds other than Hereford. Maybe that's because Angus cattle are dirty common than most breeds. Not lot of Angus have good longevity. Our Galloway x Angus cross cows are still in excellent condition in their teen's but our straight Angus cows are fall apart after their 10th bday. I noticed that Black Angus cattle have poor dispositions on average compared to most breeds. The Beefmaster breeder I mentioned, also seek out for better longevity and better disposition traits, something that most Black Angus doesn't have.


My experience and observations are different than yours. IMO overall Angus and Horned Herefords have less issues than the other breeds. We used one Balancer and will likely never use another. We have Angus cows that are 15-16 y/o and never missed a calf. We are culling them now. If using anything sired by a bull a AI service you had better be careful. We have had more disposition issues with the exotics , Gelvveigh and Chars. Limmies and Simmies have both had issues. So regardless of what breed I use I'm very selective when selecting one.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:37 pm

There are "issues" with all breeds. Strictly depends on the breeder and bloodlines being used.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:09 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:There are "issues" with all breeds. Strictly depends on the breeder and bloodlines being used.

I feel that's only part of the equation. Animals vary to some degree and the person handling the animal can make all the difference in the world.
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:28 pm

Temperament -absolutely. Some breeders shouldn't be allowed to own any kind of animal. "Some" temperament problems are inherited - some are not.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:27 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:There are "issues" with all breeds. Strictly depends on the breeder and bloodlines being used.

I feel that's only part of the equation. Animals vary to some degree and the person handling the animal can make all the difference in the world.


I agree about handling. We hanle ours very quite and have very few problems and cull those that show any issues. We cut 5 off last week and put them in a small pen with the tealee backed up to the gate. They loaded while we were sorting the rest. We had to cull around 20% of the Balancer sired calves. These were all out of gentle cows whose previous calves had no issues. The bull himself was ok.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:44 pm

elkwc wrote:We had to cull around 20% of the Balancer sired calves. These were all out of gentle cows whose previous calves had no issues. The bull himself was ok.


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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:51 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
elkwc wrote:We had to cull around 20% of the Balancer sired calves. These were all out of gentle cows whose previous calves had no issues. The bull himself was ok.


Sam Ting


I will add during this same time frame we culled one heifer for disposition sired by our Angus bulls. There was one Balancer and 2 Angus bulls during this time. Saw another Balancer sired bred heifer this weekend that will go to the sale as soon as she calves.
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Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Stocker Steve » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:26 am

Hetro for disposition?
or
gene dispersion?
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