Pharo cattle company

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JWBrahman
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby JWBrahman » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:42 am

WalnutCrest wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:I've wondered about running a framier, yet calving-ease, bull on Pharo cows ...

Hard to get "small" out of cows once you get it in them. Genetic "small" is persistent.


To avoid any uncertainty, I've never owned a Pharo cow or bull (although I did buy some semen on the Mashona bull he sells semen from) ... just wondering if that's a solution for anyone who things the calves from his bulls are too small.

It's easy to pot-shot almost everyone's program. Pharo is no different.

Seedstock producers need to produce what they produce, and do it consistently so that other people know what they're getting when they get breeding animals from them -- buyer beware. Pharo (imo) does that.

You may not like what he's doing, but he is doing it pretty consistently year in and year out, and so the people who buy his bulls can be really pretty confident that they'll get what they want if they buy a bull from him.


If you sell beef directly to the average person the cattle that sell are going to be different than what a packer wants to buy. The packers want a big animal that has a carcass weight closer to 900lbs. The average household isn't interested in buying a half that is 450 pounds, they are wanting something that will fit in the freezer.

At some point these heavy weights are going to come back and bite us all in the azzz. A 1600 pound steer just doesn't have the tender flavor of a calf that goes straight to slaughter from the pasture. But a 1600 lb steer is more profitable for the packer to slaughter than two 800 pound steers that may taste better.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:26 am

You are talking really extremes. A 1600# steer would give you over a 1000# hot carcass.
Taste comes from age not size. If they are keeping steers a lot longer, then they will have more taste, but not be more tender. Tenderness is better younger.
I have a friend with a Wye angus bull. Frame 3 - way too small for my liking, but I saw a heifer calf that was really, really nice. Winter Springs on here (Josh) owns 1/2 the bull).
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby JWBrahman » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:49 am

Younger animals taste better. A calf slaughtered 15 minutes off the teat is the premium dining experience.

Larger cattle finished at heavier weights are strictly for the packers. The feeders would rather keep them for less time. The cow calf producer in cattle country (the SEC states) prefer a more moderate framed cow herd.

The packer cares less about the final product than the cow calf producer. That is why only corporate chain restaurants use packer beef. Even in lil ol Baton Rouge most restaurant beef comes straight from the cow calf operation.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Ebenezer » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:03 am

Not interested in tiny or humongous. Fire and ice makes puddles of water and only occasionally does a gem appear from the puddle. Use the bull or cow for the type you need and you will have less costs of culling. Somebody mentioned another famous small type cow herd. All the same as you need to know which bulls fix a small type, bring in calving problems for daughters due to smaller size and excess fat, cows fall out early due to hormone issues with excess fat or know which of their bulls follow the cow in calf type and size. If you like a fixed small type I might have not thrown out some semen that could sell cheap! :cry2: Come to think about it I ought to give it to you so that you get your money's worth when you sell the calves at the barn for a discount. Small looks good in print and somewhere far off. Where, I don't know?
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:04 am

If you run large (r) commercial cows at todays prices, and you charge them feed as a percent of body weight, they need to wean a whopper to make a profit. I have some like that and they stay. I also have some of the kind that Kit Pharo likes to talk about - - larger fleshy cow with a slightly below average calf. That's two strikes and so they move on to someone else' herd.

I don't finish cattle, and I don't have a problem with "only" hanging an 800# carcass. I think the packers are making plenty, and my calves don't get discounted.

It gets semi interesting when you do the per acre numbers. They claim the most efficient cow is a ewe, :shock: , but I can not go there. We are running more yearlings every year, and that is working. I have some 18 month old simi crosses bred to an OCC bull that run 1100 to 1200#. They are still on pasture and look fleshy. The right kind to sell. :nod: Bred market is soft right now, but we are trying to hit the tax deduction market at year end.

Not totally sure who is fixing what in our put together herd. Too much bull turn over. So we sort and resort. There are a couple cow families that stand out in our system and they are starting to dominate. Bull does not seem to matter a lot to them.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:20 am

Ebenezer wrote:Not interested in tiny or humongous. Fire and ice makes puddles of water and only occasionally does a gem appear from the puddle. Use the bull or cow for the type you need and you will have less costs of culling. Somebody mentioned another famous small type cow herd. All the same as you need to know which bulls fix a small type, bring in calving problems for daughters due to smaller size and excess fat, cows fall out early due to hormone issues with excess fat or know which of their bulls follow the cow in calf type and size. If you like a fixed small type I might have not thrown out some semen that could sell cheap! :cry2: Come to think about it I ought to give it to you so that you get your money's worth when you sell the calves at the barn for a discount. Small looks good in print and somewhere far off. Where, I don't know?


Have you tried sheep? ;-)
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby JWBrahman » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:07 am

Why does Cattle Today attract the Mother Goose bs so often? Fire and ice makes a puddle...

Forest Gump never sounded like a genius to me and when you do business somewhere besides a sale barn the customer doesn't want nursery rhymes.

Guess what? Traditional Black Angus is a smaller animal with better taste. Some people do raise beef for reasons other than making profit for the packers.

Too much dang "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" on social media...
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Silver » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:15 am

Well, it's kind of interesting to note that the title for the largest average cow size in the US belongs to Hereford, followed by Black Angus. Times have changed for sure.
As far as taste goes, it's like which girl is prettiest. I think saying one breed tastes better than another is purely subjective and has no basis in fact.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby bball » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:55 am

Stocker Steve wrote:I like to keep it extra complicated. Currently we have:
- cow/calf (about 25% turn over per yr currently)
- back grounding (home raised plus purchased)
- bred heifers (sell the big cut after second summer and retain smaller cut)

I stock 1.0 to 1.4 acres/AMU, so I have been increasing the percentage of yearlings for flexibility and a higher gross margin. I run heifers with cows most of the time so the production is not a lot of extra work. Still working through how to market them best. I think that is a weak link.

We are still grazing good fescue/legume stockpile. Will be on hay for a couple weeks before the bred cull cows and the big bred heifers are sold. Steers/culls will go to back grounding. Retained heifer calves will stay on the cows. Then the artic vortex arrives. :shock:


1. 25% seems high. Is that intentional or a natural byproduct of your program? A vet down here sent a mailing out last year that essentially stated cow longevitity is a must for profitability for the cow/calf operators. The average age of your cows tell the story- Less than 6 years old means you need to improve your program according to him.

2. How much value do you get from the stockpile and for how long? Is it rendered useless after covered in snow or will they work for it through the snow?

3. Stay on nursing or just with them after weaned? If left to self wean, when do they typically wean off?

Thanks
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby bball » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:07 am

JWBrahman wrote:Younger animals taste better. A calf slaughtered 15 minutes off the teat is the premium dining experience.

Larger cattle finished at heavier weights are strictly for the packers. The feeders would rather keep them for less time. The cow calf producer in cattle country (the SEC states) prefer a more moderate framed cow herd.

The packer cares less about the final product than the cow calf producer. That is why only corporate chain restaurants use packer beef. Even in lil ol Baton Rouge most restaurant beef comes straight from the cow calf operation.


This is a great point. I was recently approached by a local restaurant to provide their beef supply. I declined because I didn't believe I would be able to meet their demand currently. Retirement side money opportunity?
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:08 pm

bball wrote:
1. 25% seems high. Is that intentional or a natural byproduct of your program? A vet down here sent a mailing out last year that essentially stated cow longevitity is a must for profitability for the cow/calf operators. The average age of your cows tell the story- Less than 6 years old means you need to improve your program according to him.

2. How much value do you get from the stockpile and for how long? Is it rendered useless after covered in snow or will they work for it through the snow?

3. Stay on nursing or just with them after weaned? If left to self wean, when do they typically wean off?

Thanks


1) Yes, it is about twice the average replacement rate, but your extension agent is out of date. The key is the difference between your selling price and your replacement cost. Some buy high and sell low so they try to spread the cost difference over a decade, still hanging on to those $2,500 breds they bought a while back. I try sell high, and then buy back low. Replacements should be a profitable enterprise - - not a slow death march towards teenage cows, unless they have ear. ;-)

2) Cattle are gaining weight on harded grass. We usually get deep snow in December but I am out of stock pile by then. Don't listen to the Missoura experts - - you need to balance out pasture vs. hay costs for your area.

3) Leaving calves on cows is a test and a few will not make the cut. Some traditional English cows self wean, some high growth cows milk too much, and most are just right. I pull any remaining calves 8 weeks before calving starts. The thing you want to avoid is late breed back the following year with thin heavy milking stein or simi crosses.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Ebenezer » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:Not interested in tiny or humongous. Fire and ice makes puddles of water and only occasionally does a gem appear from the puddle. Use the bull or cow for the type you need and you will have less costs of culling. Somebody mentioned another famous small type cow herd. All the same as you need to know which bulls fix a small type, bring in calving problems for daughters due to smaller size and excess fat, cows fall out early due to hormone issues with excess fat or know which of their bulls follow the cow in calf type and size. If you like a fixed small type I might have not thrown out some semen that could sell cheap! :cry2: Come to think about it I ought to give it to you so that you get your money's worth when you sell the calves at the barn for a discount. Small looks good in print and somewhere far off. Where, I don't know?


Have you tried sheep? ;-)

Got pastures of them. Let me guess - you don't like them either?

Why does Cattle Today attract the Mother Goose bs so often? Fire and ice makes a puddle...

Forest Gump never sounded like a genius to me and when you do business somewhere besides a sale barn the customer doesn't want nursery rhymes.

Guess what? Traditional Black Angus is a smaller animal with better taste. Some people do raise beef for reasons other than making profit for the packers.

Too much dang "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" on social media...
A long term livestock term is "fire and ice matings". They are gene mongrelizers for generations to come. Sorry to go beyond your history. No goose, no Gump. Honest discussion from the farm to wherever you care to sell.

It is either extremely small or it is a 1600 pound carcass for the packers? I do not buy that. There are average cattle that work fine. Why the extremes or the hostility?
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Nesikep » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:07 pm

I don't like high turnover in the herd.. old cows know the drill, for one, and what's the point of selecting for proper structure, udders, etc if you never put it to the test?
if i have a bred heifer, and lets say I have $2000 invested into her (raised or bought, whatever), and she lasts 15 years with a 50/50 chance of ending up as a hole in the ground vs $.70/lb on 1400 lbs, that would mean on average I get about $500 back from her at that age, so in replacement cost she's about $1500/15 = $100 a year
Now if I have the same heifer kept 5 years, she's only just matured to where she makes her best calves, if I sell her after 5 calves she maybe gets $1/lb for $1400.. I went down 600 in 5 calves is $120 per year in replacement cost
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby bball » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:56 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
bball wrote:
1. 25% seems high. Is that intentional or a natural byproduct of your program? A vet down here sent a mailing out last year that essentially stated cow longevitity is a must for profitability for the cow/calf operators. The average age of your cows tell the story- Less than 6 years old means you need to improve your program according to him.

2. How much value do you get from the stockpile and for how long? Is it rendered useless after covered in snow or will they work for it through the snow?

3. Stay on nursing or just with them after weaned? If left to self wean, when do they typically wean off?

Thanks


1) Yes, it is about twice the average replacement rate, but your extension agent is out of date. The key is the difference between your selling price and your replacement cost. Some buy high and sell low so they try to spread the cost difference over a decade, still hanging on to those $2,500 breds they bought a while back. I try sell high, and then buy back low. Replacements should be a profitable enterprise - - not a slow death march towards teenage cows, unless they have ear. ;-)

2) Cattle are gaining weight on harded grass. We usually get deep snow in December but I am out of stock pile by then. Don't listen to the Missoura experts - - you need to balance out pasture vs. hay costs for your area.

3) Leaving calves on cows is a test and a few will not make the cut. Some traditional English cows self wean, some high growth cows milk too much, and most are just right. I pull any remaining calves 8 weeks before calving starts. The thing you want to avoid is late breed back the following year with thin heavy milking stein or simi crosses.



1) sell high to individuals or sale barn? I actually prefer your logic to the vet's recommendation; makes cents :) perhaps registered folks need to gain increased longevity from their cows since there is less fluctuation in reg prices?
2) In another thread, you mentioned grazing after a killing frost. Have you had a killing frost yet? How many days grazing would you say you average on stockpiled after a killing frost before you're covered up in snow? Have you found grazing stockpiled sets that pasture back in growth come spring or it's not a factor because the root reserve isn't hurt after the killing frost? ( I'm very interested and know very little on the subject)
3) is this a culling criteria you utilize? Would make for a very thrifty herd if so.

I finished the book. Fascinating read and almost on information overload. Thanks
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:28 pm

1) Selling location depends on quality and color.
2) We had 18F a couple weeks ago. No flies on us.
Late summer/early fall grazing reduces tillering a lot. Late fall grazing is better, but it does still reduces cool season grass energy reserves the following spring. Native grass does better with fall grazing. "Improved" grasses like European meadow fescues can winter kill with heavy fall grazing. No free lunch - - more fall growth is at the expense of winter hardiness.
3) Thin cows get one strike. Any slippage from the first 42 days of the calving season is strike two, and puts them on the cull list. A little late cow sells much higher than an open. I cull hard but I seldom have to preg check.
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