Pharo cattle company

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by gcreekrch » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:12 pm

elkwc wrote:
Muddy wrote:Does anyone really have a herd of 1,800lbs black cows? And why would you want these 1,800lbs cows have the dink calves if these cows are bred to the small framed bulls?


Muddy I agree. And one question I have is with all of the bulls they sell every year why don't you see some close out reports on how the progeny of Pharo bulls have fed and also how they did on the rail? I have a feeling the results aren't good or we would be seeing some. If they keep 50% of the males for bulls that is still a lot of steers that have to be fed and then the progeny of the bulls they sell. Again I have looked for several years and have yet to find any results.


When their coming 2 year old bulls only weigh 900 lbs do you think the steers would be ready to kill yet? :D


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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by elkwc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:33 pm

gcreekrch wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Muddy wrote:Does anyone really have a herd of 1,800lbs black cows? And why would you want these 1,800lbs cows have the dink calves if these cows are bred to the small framed bulls?


Muddy I agree. And one question I have is with all of the bulls they sell every year why don't you see some close out reports on how the progeny of Pharo bulls have fed and also how they did on the rail? I have a feeling the results aren't good or we would be seeing some. If they keep 50% of the males for bulls that is still a lot of steers that have to be fed and then the progeny of the bulls they sell. Again I have looked for several years and have yet to find any results.


When their coming 2 year old bulls only weigh 900 lbs do you think the steers would be ready to kill yet? :D


No

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by WalnutCrest » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:46 pm

jdg wrote:The bit about playing Offense and Defense is important to remember. Pharo is correct, IMO, about breeding for cattle that fit the environment, and I believe, mostly right about smaller cattle being more efficient. (exceptions to every rule) But small framed calves do get docked.


Anything taken to any extreme will leave you there, stranded.

Calving ease has been preached, and if a producer has too many successive years is using smaller and smaller BW bulls (with bad growth stats), they'll be better off dispersing and using the money to start over with the correct cows than to 'fix' the ones they have.

jdg wrote:I believe most people would make more money with moderate sized cattle (frame 4.0-5.5) bred to a terminal bull, and not saving those heifers).


This seedstock breeder approves this message.

jdg wrote:Pharo bulls would probably work best to downsize the black cows out there that weight 1800+ with 3 terminal bulls up close in their pedigree.


I said it above, seeking extremes rarely is a profitable long term decision.

If I breed for anything extreme, it's (a) easy fleshing on low inputs, (b) fertility on low inputs, and (c) tender beef for the consumer.

jdg wrote:If you trace Pharo's pedigrees, many of them feature Ohlde, Wye, Beckton, and Buffalo Creek breeding; programs that have made a mark on their respective niches. The Pharo program certainly excels at marketing, but I believe it is pointing in the right direction, the caveat is also that there is a place for breeding maternal, and a place to breed pounds.


I have zero idea about his genetics. I'll have to trust you're right.
Last edited by WalnutCrest on Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by jdg » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:07 am

To clarify, I said Pharo was "pointed in the right direction", different than "headed". He's pointed at lowering costs by choosing cattle suited to their environment, focus on easy fleshing, fertile cattle with convenience and longevity. "Defense". These are all traits that make a commercial cattlemen money. I"m not arguing he hasn't gone to the extreme, I was saying he was chasing the right rabbit, he just might have went too far down the hole. These cattle probably would work better in the grass finished beef industry where frame size is noticeable smaller than the mainstream world, although repressed growth is an issue in that niche as well.

I won't get into the economics of terminal vs. maternal breeding, or home-raised vs. bought heifers, because i believe those topics have been hashed out pretty thin on this forum previously. If you're supporting your ranch, without outside income, selling cattle in the up and down swings of the market, you're calculator must work reasonable well....and I do sell seedstock WalnutCrest, so I did approve that message, referenced above. I also sell commercials.

Most of the 1800lb.plus cattle i've seen were in the Dakotas, NE, and MT...I've heard legends of them that big at the great land of our neighbor to the North.

My point in all this is that too many cattlemen in my area (the southeast) are farmers with cattle. My family farms as well, I'm familiar with the affliction. They often chase weaning weights and carcass traits to the detriment of the reproductive longevity of their cattle. Most of these folks sell calves at weaning, or at most backgrounded for 45 days, and don't take advantage of retaining ownership in the feedlot or having a longstanding relationship with a feeder. The bull test station will be full of them in a few weeks, buying 1300 lb. fat yearling feed test bulls, that they'll take home, watch melt, and save heifers off of, and sell sons at the sale barn. The pedigrees of these bulls are often filled with cattle from high input, hard grass, cold winter environments. This benefits the feeders and the packers, but if the cattlemen are only getting a $0.10/HW premium on a weaned calf, it doesn't make up for the efficiences lost by filling your herd with those daughters.

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:51 am

Most of the 1800lb.plus cattle i've seen were in the Dakotas, NE, and MT...I've heard legends of them that big at the great land of our neighbor to the North.

Easy to get cows too big anywhere. My experience with curve benders years ago here in SC had a 1600+, 1700+ and such. Using terminal breeds and keeping daughters can do the same. That is assuming that using big to get medium or better. It does not work as there is a sort and sometimes an unseen prepotency in curve benders towards big. We have to admit that curve benders are anomalies and defy the normal birth weight/growth rate linkage.

Same for small to make the big medium. You will end up with a wide range, a lot of undesirable and the "small" can be prepotent for generations. Even on a home raised bull that was highly inbred but assumed regressed. Bad assumption! Used him for a heifer bull and that went very well and left great daughters. Sons had little use as they were small. Daughters are as fertile as rabbits but are medium at best. After their first calves they have been bred back towards more growth or normal size to try to use what is here and get size back. So it is a "wish I did and wish I didn't" position. Live and learn.

Bottom line: use bulls, to correct or just make daughters, that are most like what you know fits and what you want. It is not an immediate fix but it has less sort and longer term stability.

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by WalnutCrest » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:24 am

jdg wrote:To clarify, I said Pharo was "pointed in the right direction", different than "headed". He's pointed at lowering costs by choosing cattle suited to their environment, focus on easy fleshing, fertile cattle with convenience and longevity. "Defense". These are all traits that make a commercial cattlemen money. I"m not arguing he hasn't gone to the extreme, I was saying he was chasing the right rabbit, he just might have went too far down the hole. These cattle probably would work better in the grass finished beef industry where frame size is noticeable smaller than the mainstream world, although repressed growth is an issue in that niche as well.

I won't get into the economics of terminal vs. maternal breeding, or home-raised vs. bought heifers, because i believe those topics have been hashed out pretty thin on this forum previously. If you're supporting your ranch, without outside income, selling cattle in the up and down swings of the market, you're calculator must work reasonable well....and I do sell seedstock WalnutCrest, so I did approve that message, referenced above. I also sell commercials.

Most of the 1800lb.plus cattle i've seen were in the Dakotas, NE, and MT...I've heard legends of them that big at the great land of our neighbor to the North.

My point in all this is that too many cattlemen in my area (the southeast) are farmers with cattle. My family farms as well, I'm familiar with the affliction. They often chase weaning weights and carcass traits to the detriment of the reproductive longevity of their cattle. Most of these folks sell calves at weaning, or at most backgrounded for 45 days, and don't take advantage of retaining ownership in the feedlot or having a longstanding relationship with a feeder. The bull test station will be full of them in a few weeks, buying 1300 lb. fat yearling feed test bulls, that they'll take home, watch melt, and save heifers off of, and sell sons at the sale barn. The pedigrees of these bulls are often filled with cattle from high input, hard grass, cold winter environments. This benefits the feeders and the packers, but if the cattlemen are only getting a $0.10/HW premium on a weaned calf, it doesn't make up for the efficiences lost by filling your herd with those daughters.


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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Stocker Steve » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:47 am

KIt spoke at Grassworks yesterday. A different tone than the news letters. He was low key with a sense of humor. Very good summary of the basics - - rotate pastures, calve on grass, match cows to forage supply. :cboy:

I spoke with a sharp producer who has used the Pharo RA AI bulls, and Brown RA AI bulls. He said they were comparable and both hung a 750 to 800 pound carcass. If you look on the PCC AI site bulls there are a number of 4 frame, and some 4.5 frame.

I have seen some really ugly PCC natural cover bulls. Not sure how uniform the 900 bulls sold per year are. Could be that 50% are below average. :? I would not trash the entire program for that.

Cow/calf producers with main steam cattle and Excel should look at back grounding before they flip their cow herd. We show a lot more profit/acre from taking calves to 750# than from producing sucking calves.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Silver » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:38 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:Cow/calf producers with main steam cattle and Excel should look at back grounding before they flip their cow herd. We show a lot more profit/acre from taking calves to 750# than from producing sucking calves.


Kinda shooting for the 750# sucking calves myself, eliminating that extra step ;-)

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Stocker Steve » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:42 pm

Silver wrote:Kinda shooting for the 750# sucking calves myself, eliminating that extra step ;-)


How do Holstein cows winter up in the artic?
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Supa Dexta » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:50 pm

Indoors. Rare to ever see one outside anymore.

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Silver » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:53 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Silver wrote:Kinda shooting for the 750# sucking calves myself, eliminating that extra step ;-)


How do Holstein cows winter up in the artic?


I'm sure they do fine, cattle tend to do better in the arctic than the desert. But I was referring to calves in general.

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by elkwc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:40 pm

Silver wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:Cow/calf producers with main steam cattle and Excel should look at back grounding before they flip their cow herd. We show a lot more profit/acre from taking calves to 750# than from producing sucking calves.


Kinda shooting for the 750# sucking calves myself, eliminating that extra step ;-)


I shoot for at least 700# steers at weaning.

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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by gcreekrch » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:23 pm

I shoot for a live calf, raised cheap from a cow that will survive here. There aren't many big cows on this place but if they get to a harder grass area they will grow 200 lbs at any age.

I'm satisfied with dollars per head profit. Whether it is from the cow herd or the feeder cattle.
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by Stocker Steve » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:22 pm

I bought lunch and then toured the operation with my Dad yesterday. He had a great time, except for getting be nice on his boots. He mentioned how good my cows are conditioned (they are on mostly fescue/legume stockpile). He mentioned how big some cows are (I have some up to 1600#). He mentioned how good one cow in particular looked (this she pig is on the 2018 cull list). Made me think about maternal vs. terminal bulls, and how to size sort replacement heifers...

Decent young bulls run about U$S 3000 here, as long as you avoid the older operations with a lot of marketing. Decent or better mature bulls run about $2000, if you want to go there. I am looking at the medium (not small) frame and three star (not four or five) calving ease Pharo bulls. I think I can get it done for under $4000 at a fall sale. So I am tempted to experiment.

Have you bought a sight unseen Pharo bull? Any tip?
Have you seen first generation Pharo cross heifers? How profitable were they?
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Re: Pharo cattle company

Post by bball » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:I bought lunch and then toured the operation with my Dad yesterday. He had a great time, except for getting be nice on his boots. He mentioned how good my cows are conditioned (they are on mostly fescue/legume stockpile). He mentioned how big some cows are (I have some up to 1600#). He mentioned how good one cow in particular looked (this she pig is on the 2018 cull list). Made me think about maternal vs. terminal bulls, and how to size sort replacement heifers...

Decent young bulls run about U$S 3000 here, as long as you avoid the older operations with a lot of marketing. Decent or better mature bulls run about $2000, if you want to go there. I am looking at the medium (not small) frame and three star (not four or five) calving ease Pharo bulls. I think I can get it done for under $4000 at a fall sale. So I am tempted to experiment.

Have you bought a sight unseen Pharo bull? Any tip?
Have you seen first generation Pharo cross heifers? How profitable were they?


Steve,
Are you keeping cow/calf and backgrounding other calfs, or only cow/calf producer? Please expound upon the bold statement. I'm gaining on your recommended reading assignment. Lots of information and food for thought thus far.
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