Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

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kickinbull
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby kickinbull » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:48 pm

Here in SC KY it’s a price thing. Black brings more. Plain and simple.i am not color blind.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby Bullitt » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:25 pm

Aaron wrote:Just a regional thing. Far more Hereford, Charolais and Red Angus bulls travelling pastures here than Black Angus. BA fad has come and gone here, lasted a good 10 years; longer than the Limo fad.



That is good to know.

Hopefully we will see a similar situation in the United States soon.

It is crazy to me that an Angus that is black sells for more than one that is red when they are both Angus. In Great Britain it is one breed. Are black and red Angus considered the same breed in Canada also?
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby SimAngHerf » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:44 pm

sstterry wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:
sstterry wrote:
The "Certified Angus" label really chaps my butt. It was nothing but a marketing ploy by the Angus Breeders. But it did work and it has stuck. They even got some regulations passed to meet the certification. One of the originators was from Jonesboro Tn as I recall.
that's a fire that's too late and too hot to stop....



I agree, but here are the certification guidelines. It is all about the carcass.



Image


Image
It’s sad because all breeds “can/could” meet the same requirements + or - the hide but I sure love a good ribeye and can’t say I ever asked “what color was the hide”. I reckon we call it good marketing on their part. I like things about the angus breed but am not stuck on any breed they all have strengths and weaknesses and should be a tool in the toolbox as someone else stated. This is what I pulled off the angus website.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby SimAngHerf » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:46 pm

Bullitt wrote:
Aaron wrote:Just a regional thing. Far more Hereford, Charolais and Red Angus bulls travelling pastures here than Black Angus. BA fad has come and gone here, lasted a good 10 years; longer than the Limo fad.



That is good to know.

Hopefully we will see a similar situation in the United States soon.

It is crazy to me that an Angus that is black sells for more than one that is red when they are both Angus. In Great Britain it is one breed. Are black and red Angus considered the same breed in Canada also?

Most Americans need a click to be in and someone to follow.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby ALACOWMAN » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:06 pm

SimAngHerf wrote:
sstterry wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote: that's a fire that's too late and too hot to stop....



I agree, but here are the certification guidelines. It is all about the carcass.



Image


Image
It’s sad because all breeds “can/could” meet the same requirements + or - the hide but I sure love a good ribeye and can’t say I ever asked “what color was the hide”. I reckon we call it good marketing on their part. I like things about the angus breed but am not stuck on any breed they all have strengths and weaknesses and should be a tool in the toolbox as someone else stated. This is what I pulled off the angus website.
the marbling and tenderness in the meat that is under that black hide is why,and what their after....and no,I'm not a angus pimp...
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby sim.-ang.king » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:08 pm

SimAngHerf wrote:
Bullitt wrote:
Aaron wrote:Just a regional thing. Far more Hereford, Charolais and Red Angus bulls travelling pastures here than Black Angus. BA fad has come and gone here, lasted a good 10 years; longer than the Limo fad.



That is good to know.

Hopefully we will see a similar situation in the United States soon.

It is crazy to me that an Angus that is black sells for more than one that is red when they are both Angus. In Great Britain it is one breed. Are black and red Angus considered the same breed in Canada also?

Most Americans need a click to be in and someone to follow.


Well if making a profit is a click, I'm in!
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby SimAngHerf » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:35 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:
SimAngHerf wrote:
Bullitt wrote:

That is good to know.

Hopefully we will see a similar situation in the United States soon.

It is crazy to me that an Angus that is black sells for more than one that is red when they are both Angus. In Great Britain it is one breed. Are black and red Angus considered the same breed in Canada also?

Most Americans need a click to be in and someone to follow.


Well if making a profit is a click, I'm in!

I’m going to have to agree with that comment!
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby Tbrake » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:59 pm

I’ve been using a few Hereford bulls over BA cows for about 3 years now. All the old timers tell me I will have terrible pinkeye problems, but I have found there to be no difference. These pastures I AI to angus bulls and cleanup with Herefords. Makes it easy to tell them apart. I have a lot more calving troubles with Herefords, they are regularly 15-20lbs heavier. Haven’t been able to find Herefords with the BW to weaning spread the angus have. But the Herefords flat grow, my steers have been at the very top of the sale every time. Heifers look phenomenal, very deep, long, lots of guts, and incredibly thick. People comment on them all the time. I enjoy the baldie calves so much because you never know what they are going to look like. Some with lots of white, full face and belly. Some with just a couple white spots on the face. Nothing cuter than a new born black mottly face.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby Tbrake » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Tbrake wrote:I’ve been using a few Hereford bulls over BA cows for about 3 years now. All the old timers tell me I will have terrible pinkeye problems, but I have found there to be no difference. These pastures I AI to angus bulls and cleanup with Herefords. Makes it easy to tell them apart. I have a lot more calving troubles with Herefords, they are regularly 15-20lbs heavier. Haven’t been able to find Herefords with the BW to weaning spread the angus have. But the Herefords flat grow, my steers have been at the very top of the sale every time. Heifers look phenomenal, very deep, long, lots of guts, and incredibly thick. People comment on them all the time. I enjoy the baldie calves so much because you never know what they are going to look like. Some with lots of white, full face and belly. Some with just a couple white spots on the face. Nothing cuter than a new born black mottly face.

I’m trying to decide what breed to use on these white face heifers this fall. Thinking either go back angus, or gelbvieh. I did not care for the Hereford over my cross bred cows(gelvieh/angus and gelbvieh/char) Result were pretty inconsistent.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby SimAngHerf » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:45 pm

Tbrake wrote:
Tbrake wrote:I’ve been using a few Hereford bulls over BA cows for about 3 years now. All the old timers tell me I will have terrible pinkeye problems, but I have found there to be no difference. These pastures I AI to angus bulls and cleanup with Herefords. Makes it easy to tell them apart. I have a lot more calving troubles with Herefords, they are regularly 15-20lbs heavier. Haven’t been able to find Herefords with the BW to weaning spread the angus have. But the Herefords flat grow, my steers have been at the very top of the sale every time. Heifers look phenomenal, very deep, long, lots of guts, and incredibly thick. People comment on them all the time. I enjoy the baldie calves so much because you never know what they are going to look like. Some with lots of white, full face and belly. Some with just a couple white spots on the face. Nothing cuter than a new born black mottly face.

I’m trying to decide what breed to use on these white face heifers this fall. Thinking either go back angus, or gelbvieh. I did not care for the Hereford over my cross bred cows(gelvieh/angus and gelbvieh/char) Result were pretty inconsistent.

Have you thought about Simmentals or Simangus? I don’t have a ton of experience but I like what GW Robust sons have done in guys I know. I don’t have any idea how that would or wouldn’t work with char & gelbvieh though
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby Brute 23 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:55 pm

My issue has been what others have said already. It's really hard to find really good quality Herefords down here. Unless you just have to have a Hereford to make tigers or baldies you can buy a Char or Angus bull of good quality fairly easy to make calves to go to sale barn.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby SPH » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:16 pm

I agree with a lot of the posts so far in this thread when it comes to positives and criticisms. I do think it's partially a regional thing when it comes to demand for Herefords from what I hear as some guys seem surprised to see sale results around here that struggle to sell good Hereford bulls in their area for anywhere near those prices. I will say right now I think that in good portions of the Midwest Hereford bulls are in high demand and there are a lot of breeders that are raising some good Hereford cattle in the region that are breeding with the commercial guy in mind. Our state Hereford sale averaged $250 more than the Angus this year and was the top selling breed at the Iowa Beef Expo and their sale is held at the same time as the Hereford sale.

We don't have a huge herd - most years we breed around 20-25 females but we usually keep the top 3 or 4 bull calves to sell as yearlings and the large majority of them have sold to commercial guys with black cows and several of them have come back to buy another bull again after they liked the results they got from the 1st bull they bought. One of our bulls this year sold to a guy that bought a bull from us 3 years ago and he told us he is done buying Angus bulls after using a Hereford bull. We aren't selling bulls at a discount or near sale barn prices but we do follow the market and production sales and price ours accordingly and most guys do not balk at our asking prices. We collect weights and data on our bulls through yearling including DNA testing and ultrasound at their BSE which we feel adds to their value when there is raw data behind them and not just blindly trusting their EPDs.

I think some of the negatives Herefords got a bad rap for over the years like calving ease, eye problems, prolapse, and udders most breeders have culled and bred out those problems over the years. First off I think that pinkeye is much more an environmental thing than it is genetic. We vaccinate for pinkeye before cows and calves go out to summer pasture and unless we have a really dry summer we hardly ever have to treat for pinkeye. The commercial breeder just down the road from us had a black Angus bull nearly go blind from pinkeye one summer while we didn't have to treat a single animal for it so I don't buy into the notion that it's a problem specific to Herefords. With calving ease, regardless what you may think of EPDs that is the 1 area we do not ignore when we make breeding decisions as we have been bitten more than once by taking a chance on a higher BW and CE EPD bull despite his actual BW being reasonable. There is a good chance that EPD is high for a reason because there are probably calving ease issues somewhere in the bull's pedigree that he has inherited and the accuracy behind the EPD is important to pay attention to as well. The prolapse issues usually can be traced back to certain sires that I think anyone who had a problem with culled as soon as they identified the source. And finally udders, that is an area I think a lot of Hereford breeders have made a lot of progress in. I see a lot more cows in Hereford programs today that have adequate milk and good teat and udder structure than there was 10-20 years ago. The 2 biggest problems were a cow that milked heavy but had big teats and a saggy udder or a cow that didn't milk worth a darn. Everyone has their own opinions on what they call a functional udder so there is always room for improvement when it comes to udders the Hereford breed has come a long ways in that area.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby BFE » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:04 am

Myself, I've not had as good of results with Herf cows. The calves seem to be slower growing than my SimAngus. I assume it's not an issue of breeding, these cows have a lot of fancy letters in the prefix's on their registration papers. I am using my Horned bull over the black cows for cleanup, I'll tell you how that goes by the end of the year. I'm expecting some really nice calves out of him on my black girls.
I do think most commercial guys in my area are giving up something by just using Angus bull after Angus bull. What's the point in going basically purebred on a commercial herd?
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:44 am

Baldy bred heifers sell for $100 to $150 more than straight angus here. A good Hereford bull will put about 20# on steer calves vs. straight angus. It also seems to me that the baldy calves have a little more vigor at birth. You can put pounds on F1 terminal steers using a number of breeds, but if you are a commercial operation that retains heifers, you can not afford to not use Hereford.
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Re: Why are Hereford bulls overlooked?

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:58 am

Stocker Steve wrote:Baldy bred heifers sell for $100 to $150 more than straight angus here. A good Hereford bull will put about 20# on steer calves vs. straight angus. It also seems to me that the baldy calves have a little more vigor at birth. You can put pounds on F1 terminal steers using a number of breeds, but if you are a commercial operation that retains heifers, you can not afford to not use Hereford.


Steve how do Hereford bulls compare to SimAngus or Simmental bulls for putting pounds on calves?
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