black baldy heifers

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Ky hills
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Ky hills » Tue May 29, 2018 2:01 pm

Son of Butch wrote:Speaking of MARC thought I'd have a little fun at the expense of Simmental lovers with MARC data about 45 yrs old.

Data compares Holstein bulls with Simmental bulls from 2 different years.
Holstein bulls were bred to f1 Angus x Hereford cows.
Simmental bulls bred to pure Angus and pure Hereford cows to produce f1s.

Holstein sired 93% conception, gestation 281 days bw 83.8 lbs unassisted births 92% survival to weaning 92.8%
pounds weaned per cow exposed 492 lbs
Simmental 89% conception, gestation 286.4 days bw 84.9 lbs unassisted births 89% survival to weaning 88.8%
pounds weaned per cow exposed 443 lbs (Simmental bulls had 9 lb advantage on calves that survived to weaning)

Not a fair test as old data from different years and different cows..... but still fun. :)


Years ago when I started out with some cattle as a teen, my parents looked into Simmentals, back then (30 years ago) there were still the red and white ones around here. A neighbor had some and the word was that calving issues abounded. When we went to another farm to see the cattle, all it took to turn my parents off from the breed was the height and heaviness of their working facilities. The vet that worked our cattle at that time didn't have anything good to say about them, he said they look like they are sick all the time. I also heard that he said he was glad when another neighbor stopped using Simmental bulls.
I'm sure that the breed has changed alot since then but still a lot of the stereotypes remain just as they do with Charolais and Limousin.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby elkwc » Tue May 29, 2018 4:14 pm

elkwc wrote:
Texas Gal wrote:Being in Texas, I would run a Brangus bull with those baldy heifers.

We have some Brangus cows that are 14-16 y/o. Will likely be the only old cows we don’t sell this year. They look like 9’s and wean big calves every year. Have kept their daughters and they make great mothers.Would buy some young ones if I could find them.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Gators Rule » Tue May 29, 2018 4:17 pm

Ky, you say a lot of the stereotypes still remain with Simmentals, I would love to hear three of them that still remain from 30 years ago. I can certainly think of a few flaws, but they were not created 30 years ago.
Last edited by Gators Rule on Tue May 29, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ky hills
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Ky hills » Tue May 29, 2018 5:11 pm

Gators Rule wrote:Ky, you say a lot of the stereotypes still remain with Simental‘s. I would love to hear three of them that still remain from30 years ago. I can certainly think of a few flaws, but they were not created 30 years ago.


For the record, This is not coming from me, I have never had many simmentals red or the new black ones so I am just stating what I hear. The stereotypes that I still hear about are that they are hard calving ( big calves), they make cows that are too big, poor dispositions. Not long ago someone was telling me how much more feed that someone was feeding an Angus and a Simmental heifer to show and they were saying the simmental was eating more feed and wouldn't weigh as much as the Angus. Again I'm not bashing Simmental, just saying what I hear folks say, if it makes any difference when I had Charolais, folks often unloaded in person to me about the nightmares they had of calving and how wild Charolais were. I always would listen and acknowledge their concerns, as I hadn't had any of those issues with them, but eventually did and now those stereotypes of that breed hit home for me too. Every breed has them and once a negative experience is had with a particular breed it tends to stick around whether deserved or not.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby ALACOWMAN » Tue May 29, 2018 5:20 pm

The nightmares usually came from the guys breeding them,that had zero knowledge of what they were doing..throwin them out on commercial crossbred cows...
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Gators Rule » Tue May 29, 2018 6:10 pm

Ala, I’d agree with that statement!
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue May 29, 2018 6:25 pm

When all the Continentals hit the states, everyone had that cull commercial cow that they figured they would try this new breed on. They were taking 2300# bulls & AI breeding them to scawny 800# cows. A lot of them died in the process.
I don't know how I am the only one still around that took good commercial cows and AI bred them to Simmental and had virtually no calving problems. And we were rookies, didn't even know how to tell a cow was ready to calve. We used Galant a lot. Gave real moderate, thick offspring. I can honestly say, the only problem over the years that we had was too much milk. Udders were good, just way too much milk for a newborn. And, after coming to NY, we had a lot of "dumb" calves - could have been from Simmental, but most likely was Selenium deficiencies, because after Cornell got us on SE shots at birth (double dose), problem went away.
We bred our first commercial cows in 1970. I still have one cow family that dates back to those very first 1/2 blood calves.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby elkwc » Tue May 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:When all the Continentals hit the states, everyone had that cull commercial cow that they figured they would try this new breed on. They were taking 2300# bulls & AI breeding them to scawny 800# cows. A lot of them died in the process.
I don't know how I am the only one still around that took good commercial cows and AI bred them to Simmental and had virtually no calving problems. And we were rookies, didn't even know how to tell a cow was ready to calve. We used Galant a lot. Gave real moderate, thick offspring. I can honestly say, the only problem over the years that we had was too much milk. Udders were good, just way too much milk for a newborn. And, after coming to NY, we had a lot of "dumb" calves - could have been from Simmental, but most likely was Selenium deficiencies, because after Cornell got us on SE shots at birth (double dose), problem went away.
We bred our first commercial cows in 1970. I still have one cow family that dates back to those very first 1/2 blood calves.


Jeanne I can say all of the cows I'm talking about were at least 1,200 and some up to 1,350. These weren't small cows especially for that time period. The breeder who bred most of these and sold them became big into the black simmi's and had a large dispersal sale in the early 2,000's. I know early on he had some issues with his own cows. Have no idea about what bloodlines they were. But can assure you they weren't small cows or first calf heifers. I only know of one that was weighed and the man got on bathroom scales and we handed him the calf. I remember it was over 140 pounds by those scales. Can't remember the exact weight. Pulled a few more that were close to him and had one I had to call the vet and he had to do a c section. Again that was at least 45 years ago or more. And that is one area that I feel great progress has been made in. I know the breeder of the bulls told me after his dispersal sale that he had made great progress and felt the BW's were down where any mature cow could have them.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue May 29, 2018 7:02 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:The nightmares usually came from the guys breeding them,that had zero knowledge of what they were doing..throwin them out on commercial crossbred cows...


That's what I did, you live and learn. I still can't see any reason to ever have a Charolais bull on our place again.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby ALACOWMAN » Tue May 29, 2018 7:27 pm

I'm still learning everyday..seen a lot of guys here make the same mistake..probably the reason I didn't is,I'm not a Char man as such...though they make a great calf ..
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue May 29, 2018 7:41 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:I'm still learning everyday..seen a lot of guys here make the same mistake..probably the reason I didn't is,I'm not a Char man as such...though they make a great calf ..


I have some really good smokey cows that I've picked up cheap that raise excellent calves. Wish I had more but I can't bring myself to breed that way.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Tue May 29, 2018 8:48 pm

Image

Char X Angus makes a nice set of calves.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Lazy M » Wed May 30, 2018 10:23 am

I think that the biggest stereotype for Sim and Continentals to overcome is that they are still generally viewed as a terminal breed. They make dynamite feeder calves when used for Angus based cattle, but I'm still a little hesitant about retaining the heifers.. I think producers are becoming a little more open minded, but I think that Angus and Hereford are still viewed as the preferred breeds for building a cattle herd around.. everyone is worried about being stuck with a bunch of hard-doing, framey cows.
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed May 30, 2018 10:43 am

Simmental was never considered a terminal breed. They are and always have been a maternal breed. People may have the wrong "perceived" notion that ALL continentals are terminal. Limo & Char never had milk - just muscle - so they were always a terminal cross.
Simmental got the reputation of being hard to finish on the feedlot, because everyone would background them like they did the British weaned calves. They grew frame. Then when put on a feedlot, they had to put a LOT of weight on to finish. My PB Simmental - on Cornell Univ feedlot - finished consistently at average $1300 at 13 months of age and most sold as CAB. You cannot get a better feedlot animal. Period. (Oh yeah - and I am a show breeder - talk about not fitting the stereo-type)

Get into the modern cattle of today. I'm sure there must be tall gutless wonders still running around in backyard poor pedigree cattle, but the modern bred Simmental are very moderate - in the 5 - 6.5 frame size. Angus is now the largest COW - overall average by breed. (I looked for that data and can't put my fingers on it).

The poor original OP got more than he wanted. I still stand firm that Hereford x Angus cattle should have a Simmental put on them for feedlot cattle and replacement heifers.
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Re: black baldy heifers

Postby FlyingLSimmentals » Wed May 30, 2018 3:06 pm

I'd secondly would consider a Gelbvieh. Really Liked our females we have kept from our past Gelbvieh bulls.
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