Angus breeders

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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True Grit Farms
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:41 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I'm not a Angus breeder, but you really need to think a lot of your cattle to feel you can raise better cattle than you can buy. Most if not all small operations are replicators. Most folks can't afford $10k to $100k to buy a quality cow as a starting point for their herd.

Folks find that the $10k to $100k cow is an expensive education. Dollars don't make them better. It just gives the seller another picture cow for the next 10 years of catalogs and some monetary return for the hot air. Most small herds today have 3/4 or stronger links in cattle to the hot bulls of the last 6 years. If you think that the multi-generational transfer of genetics via AI does not work then why keep doing it?

I just know what I see, and how one good cow can put you in the meat. A donor cow we call 171 has over 100 animals going directly back to her. She's been flushed Angus and Simmental and has produced winners in both breeds. Over half have been registered and sold as such through bull and heifer sales throughout the southeast and Kansas. And all the ET work has been done exclusively by the owner who is also a SS rep. You can buy the same genetics in Georgia as you can in Kansas for half to a third of the money.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Silver » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:10 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:I'm not a Angus breeder, but you really need to think a lot of your cattle to feel you can raise better cattle than you can buy.


Why can't you?
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:02 pm

Silver wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I'm not a Angus breeder, but you really need to think a lot of your cattle to feel you can raise better cattle than you can buy.


Why can't you?

For starters I'm not spending $10k plus for a heifer. Secondly I gave up on the seedstock dream and market everything commercial. I have some fairly decent cows, but no freight trains or real meat wagons like I see at the top breeders sales. I could probably AI all my cows and AI all their heifers and then AI all their heifers and end up with something or maybe not. But the major reason is I have more to do than I have time to do it.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Silver » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:34 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Silver wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I'm not a Angus breeder, but you really need to think a lot of your cattle to feel you can raise better cattle than you can buy.


Why can't you?

For starters I'm not spending $10k plus for a heifer. Secondly I gave up on the seedstock dream and market everything commercial. I have some fairly decent cows, but no freight trains or real meat wagons like I see at the top breeders sales. I could probably AI all my cows and AI all their heifers and then AI all their heifers and end up with something or maybe not. But the major reason is I have more to do than I have time to do it.


I hear you, and I'm just a little commercial guy. But I tour the outfits I buy bulls from, and those I don't, and I hear about how incredible this cow is, and how expensive that cow was, and how many shows this cow has won. But I always look at them and their calves and realize a great many of my mutts at home are just as good as anything they have. And the only reason I'm bull shopping is that I'm too lazy to raise my own and I want something not related to what I have. We've been keeping replacements on this place for almost 70 years, so I suppose in a way they are almost our own breed of purebred mutts.
I guess my point is just that just because an animal is a purebred doesn't mean it doesn't have it's equal in the commercial world, and if we select well we can raise as well as we can buy.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Supa Dexta » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:16 am

A lot of the purebred stuff around here is new comers who bought a heifer or 2 and bred it to whatever bull to make a purebred and now have calves for sale. They are only a couple years in and think they are purebred breeders, no culling at all, the animal is purebred, why would you sell it for anything less than top dollar locally? They'll chase totally different bulls year after year, depending on what the magazines and forums tell them to.

I have 0 interest in those animals. I found an old guy (who's closer to 100 then 70), thats become my honey hole for finding reasonably priced animals with more history in them.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:30 am

Supa Dexta wrote:A lot of the purebred stuff around here is new comers who bought a heifer or 2 and bred it to whatever bull to make a purebred and now have calves for sale. They are only a couple years in and think they are purebred breeders, no culling at all, the animal is purebred, why would you sell it for anything less than top dollar locally? They'll chase totally different bulls year after year, depending on what the magazines and forums tell them to.

I have 0 interest in those animals. I found an old guy (who's closer to 100 then 70), thats become my honey hole for finding reasonably priced animals with more history in them.

That's a great post and very true. But with the use of ET especially and AI the small breeders can produce some top of the line genetics. Personally I can't see why anyone would buy bulls from someone who doesn't cull at least 50% of their calf crop, have a 100+ females, and been an established operation for years. Having 2 out of 3 is acceptable. I asked myself "why would someone want to buy a bull from me" I had nothing to offer besides name brand genetics, and decent culling practices. The reality is the folks that have been in the cow business for years are the ones who made it possible for us to be able to have all this fun.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Dogs and Cows » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:39 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Silver wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I'm not a Angus breeder, but you really need to think a lot of your cattle to feel you can raise better cattle than you can buy.


Why can't you?

For starters I'm not spending $10k plus for a heifer. Secondly I gave up on the seedstock dream and market everything commercial. I have some fairly decent cows, but no freight trains or real meat wagons like I see at the top breeders sales. I could probably AI all my cows and AI all their heifers and then AI all their heifers and end up with something or maybe not. But the major reason is I have more to do than I have time to do it.


Grit...you probably have more 'real world' cattle than those top breeders do...I mean how much feed are they being shoveled to get to be meat wagons like that?

Tim
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Dogs and Cows » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:42 am

Ebenezer wrote:If you cannot breed your own cattle generation after generation you are a replicator and not a breeder. Most registered cattle are either sold on motion, promotion or commotion. There are the hoped-for coat tail effects, the extreme expense of trialing other's cattle and genetics, the unsaid, the over promoted, the over prices and the underhanded and that is why the average Angus breeder stays in business 7 years unless the money is piped in from other sources while the tragedy continues. I see the majority of Angus operations as slight of hand operations with the ace slightly showing in the cuff. If the currently accepted way worked then the average Angus would be wonderful. But every time you have to wonder about feet, udders, temperament, function, fertility, growth, ... The system is broken by those who abuse it and perpetuate it.


I can't agree with this post more! The actual breeder of animals is very few and far between. Which makes me think...I'd rather buy cows, or a bull from a long line bred breeder whose cattle work for me in my location...and ensure that I am getting the best bang for my buck with hybrid vigor. Just my thoughts.

Tim
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby 76 Bar » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:44 am

Speaking of Angus breeders...the bull sale season has begun on the West Coast.
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=logan%20ipsen
The $730,000 Lot 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIZFiJUj5b4&index=1&list=PLcOIUktrBYo-2NmzwvsEqhb84K7cdvyUc
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby elkwc » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:37 am

Silver wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Silver wrote:
Why can't you?

For starters I'm not spending $10k plus for a heifer. Secondly I gave up on the seedstock dream and market everything commercial. I have some fairly decent cows, but no freight trains or real meat wagons like I see at the top breeders sales. I could probably AI all my cows and AI all their heifers and then AI all their heifers and end up with something or maybe not. But the major reason is I have more to do than I have time to do it.


I hear you, and I'm just a little commercial guy. But I tour the outfits I buy bulls from, and those I don't, and I hear about how incredible this cow is, and how expensive that cow was, and how many shows this cow has won. But I always look at them and their calves and realize a great many of my mutts at home are just as good as anything they have. And the only reason I'm bull shopping is that I'm too lazy to raise my own and I want something not related to what I have. We've been keeping replacements on this place for almost 70 years, so I suppose in a way they are almost our own breed of purebred mutts.
I guess my point is just that just because an animal is a purebred doesn't mean it doesn't have it's equal in the commercial world, and if we select well we can raise as well as we can buy.


Very well stated. I’ve seen the same in my bull shopping. And most of the time the good bulls than can help your heard are too high to buy and the cheaper bulls should of seen a knife. We have retained one bull each of the last two years and left one a bull this year to watch develop. Had planned to keep 2 but lightning got one. We have an long time Hereford breeder we have bought females from and considering a bull from him. He culls hard so you know after almost 60 years many of the issues have been shipped. His cowherd is uniform and doesn’t look like a collection of all different types and sizes.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby sim.-ang.king » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:28 pm

A.I. and ET has made a lot of lazy breeders. Just pick some big named bulls, buy some big named donors, and go to town.
I prefer the hard way of doing it, but I'm also broke...so I guess that might have something to do with it.
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby kentuckyguy » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:20 pm

Till-Hill wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Curious. What "testing"?

Them couple 5 generation deals started with a commercial Angus cow and a Hereford x Angus cow. Would have had to test for every Angus and Hereford defect to get to trait track "green"


I’m looking at breeding up to purebred Simmental but hadn’t realized this was necessary. What’s the cost of having this testing done?
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Till-Hill » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:51 pm

kentuckyguy wrote:
Till-Hill wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Curious. What "testing"?

Them couple 5 generation deals started with a commercial Angus cow and a Hereford x Angus cow. Would have had to test for every Angus and Hereford defect to get to trait track "green"


I’m looking at breeding up to purebred Simmental but hadn’t realized this was necessary. What’s the cost of having this testing done?
starting with commercial cows? Testing for pretty much every know Angus defect would run I'd guess $100 or more a head?
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby kentuckyguy » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:50 pm

Ok so if I’m running all black commercial cows that have been bred angus for 20 years that would be the only tests they would have to run?

Are they able to use blood to give you a EPD profile from the commercial cows so you have a idea of the calf’s EPD’s?
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Re: Angus breeders

Postby Till-Hill » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:10 pm

I'd call simmental association and talk to them about it. I just knew it wasn't worth the money and time if I did find some carriers.
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