Purebred Angus bulls without papers

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:18 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:57 am
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:29 am
mwj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:04 am
I want to know how the ''good'' breeders are keeping there cattle out of the killer mud? I would not buy stock from a seller that kept cattle in the conditions that are described in this thread. :cry2:
It’s nearly impossible, and they have to be moved often. Yesterday we had almost 2.5 inches of rain, hard to keep a field looking good or an animal mud free in those conditions.

Some people hold their cattle in a particular area so as not to ruin all their pastures, that’s understandable, not feeding them anything but moldy hay in those conditions is not understandable.
I would think anyone that stores hay outside will be feeding moldy hay in this weather. Hay is just getting harder to come by every day. You've brought moldy hay up a few times, what is wrong with feeding moldy hay besides the cattle don't like it as well? I've sure fed a bunch and haven't noticed any problems.
I've talked with my vet, and a nutritionist at Southern States, as well as a commercial operator, AND a guy that produces excellent hay. They all told me pretty much the same thing. It can cause a cow or heifer to abort, and or it can cause fertility issues.

Yesterday I was pitched AND convinced to switch my entire mineral program over to Gro-Tec Ag Land Fescue 7. I was told that it would help with fescue issues in the hay, but would also help minimize any issues with moldy hay. The hay I'm feeding right now is wrapped haylage, but I've definitely seen mold in the past and did not feel good about feeding it out.

I've sold hay to the Amish before, hay that for some reason or the other, got hot after baling it with too much moisture and I figured would have mold, they bought it for $10 a bale and said, "it's no problem for us, we will grind it up with other stuff and make it work" Which I'm sure it did.

As you can tell, I'm a "belt and suspenders" type of man. I only want to AI once if I have to and I want it to stick. I value my time, mostly so I can post on CT, LOL, I kid! All joking aside, I don't want to feed anything that might cause a pregnancy to not stick.

I would feed straight corn before paying $100 a roll for moldy hay, which people are doing right now. Our local Southern States got a load of range cubes in this week, but I'm not sure that will be effective as most people would be wasting them if they threw them on the ground, and many don't have any feed bunk method to feed.

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:23 am

midTN_Brangusman wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:08 am
Never had an issue feeding cows moldy hay. horses on the other hand is a different story.
Here is an article about how it can cause abortions in cows and heifers

http://bit.ly/2NiKFce

Like I said, I would feed corn, take the worry out of losing calves and wait for the grass to start soon.

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by NEFarmwife » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:35 am

Some things we do around our place to help with what mother nature throws at us is....

We plant Sorguhm/Millet on the terraces in the spring. Never harvest. Once we start calving (after several hard freezes), we pair them out to that but in increments. We'll hot fence small sections off and move it back when needed. The calves can still get under it and seek shelter in the tall grass but we have sheds that are hot fenced as well. This has helped keep the mud away and sickness down the last couple years we've done it. Our weather right now, we'll have 0 degrees and 6 inches of snow one day and then a warm spell of nearly 50 degrees for 3 days. So our pens do get muddy. Then ice again.

We also use corn stalk bales and our haybuster to bed things down so our critters have a clean/dry/warm place. Sometimes it is necessary to bed down every day out in our pens.

Our pens all have a rolling slope to allow for most precip to drain off but come rainy season we just wrestle the mud like everyone else. It certainly helps but you can't win that war. Sometimes we'll pair out to our back pasture and feed them there till things green up and we can get them to other pastures.

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by True Grit Farms » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:41 am

DO NOT FEED STRAIGHT CORN DOING SO WILL KILL A COW. I'm sure you probably know this and were only joking around but someone somewhere might read this and think it's alright to feed straight corn. I've read reports like those on moldy hay and aborting, breeding back just never seen it first hand. I feel moldy hay is being fed and the quality is questionable at best, and add no supplementation you have problems.
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by sim.-ang.king » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:04 am

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:18 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:57 am


I would think anyone that stores hay outside will be feeding moldy hay in this weather. Hay is just getting harder to come by every day. You've brought moldy hay up a few times, what is wrong with feeding moldy hay besides the cattle don't like it as well? I've sure fed a bunch and haven't noticed any problems.
I've talked with my vet, and a nutritionist at Southern States, as well as a commercial operator, AND a guy that produces excellent hay. They all told me pretty much the same thing. It can cause a cow or heifer to abort, and or it can cause fertility issues.

Yesterday I was pitched AND convinced to switch my entire mineral program over to Gro-Tec Ag Land Fescue 7. I was told that it would help with fescue issues in the hay, but would also help minimize any issues with moldy hay. The hay I'm feeding right now is wrapped haylage, but I've definitely seen mold in the past and did not feel good about feeding it out.

I've sold hay to the Amish before, hay that for some reason or the other, got hot after baling it with too much moisture and I figured would have mold, they bought it for $10 a bale and said, "it's no problem for us, we will grind it up with other stuff and make it work" Which I'm sure it did.

As you can tell, I'm a "belt and suspenders" type of man. I only want to AI once if I have to and I want it to stick. I value my time, mostly so I can post on CT, LOL, I kid! All joking aside, I don't want to feed anything that might cause a pregnancy to not stick.

I would feed straight corn before paying $100 a roll for moldy hay, which people are doing right now. Our local Southern States got a load of range cubes in this week, but I'm not sure that will be effective as most people would be wasting them if they threw them on the ground, and many don't have any feed bunk method to feed.
They're more likely to die from eating corn, and improperly wrapped hay, than abort from mold.
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Hunter » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:20 am

Is feeding range cubes on the ground a waste?
Or is it just a waste if done in the rain?

If I have thrown the range cubes out on the ground the cows pretty much eat it up in no time.

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:38 am

Hunter wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:20 am
Is feeding range cubes on the ground a waste?
Or is it just a waste if done in the rain?

If I have thrown the range cubes out on the ground the cows pretty much eat it up in no time.
I was referring to putting them down with all the rain and mud. If there were dry ground, of course, on the ground would work fine.

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:05 am

sim.-ang.king wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:04 am
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:18 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:57 am

They're more likely to die from eating corn, and improperly wrapped hay, than abort from mold.
How so?

Corn = calories. If possible ground corn cobs, maybe throw in some molasses or sorghum and put out protein tubs. Most of the hay around here right now, is basically useless, little to no energy value at all, not to mention full of mold and mycotoxins. Why risk feeding it with calving season right around the corner?

I realize that feeding nothing but straight corn is not going to fix the issues at hand, but we aren't too far away from having grass, and it might help. A big worry however moving forward will be the fescue toxicity, which around here will probably be amped up with the winter that we have had.

Also when you say "improperly wrapped" do you mean that air got into the tubes? or that the hay wasn't wrapped soon enough after baling it high moisture? Hay sprayed with preservative should be fine, shouldn't it?

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by bigbluegrass » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:00 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:34 pm
Do any of you who sell livestock via private treaty ever screen the buyer?
I do not screen potential buyers for their ability to care for the animal. I do screen for their ability to pay. I assume that if a person is willing to pay for cattle, it is in their best interest to care for that animal. Obviously there is a wide range of opinions on how to best care for an cow. IMHO the only opinion that matters is that of the owner.

I do not raise bulls, but this thread has got me thinking about it. What do you think? I already AI all my cows. Most of my cows are already from AI sires. Some are even stacked with several AI sires/grandsires. None of my cows are registered. Maybe I am missing out on an opportunity. My only real issue is having bulls around again. I don't have enough pen or pasture area to keep them separated from cows and heifers I don't want them breeding.
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by lithuanian farmer » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:03 am

One neighbour has been feeding his dairy cows with the worst possible quality hay/haylage for years and every year in summer his cows start calving with lively calves. Not sure how many, never really was interested in counting them, but at the end of the summer there are plenty of the little ones.

On the topic about corn. To feed only corn is not the best idea... Too low in protein, high in starch, low in fibers and low in calcium. The diet has to be balanced or you will have a lot of problems.

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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:07 am

bigbluegrass wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:00 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:34 pm
Do any of you who sell livestock via private treaty ever screen the buyer?
I do not screen potential buyers for their ability to care for the animal. I do screen for their ability to pay. I assume that if a person is willing to pay for cattle, it is in their best interest to care for that animal. Obviously there is a wide range of opinions on how to best care for an cow. IMHO the only opinion that matters is that of the owner.

I do not raise bulls, but this thread has got me thinking about it. What do you think? I already AI all my cows. Most of my cows are already from AI sires. Some are even stacked with several AI sires/grandsires. None of my cows are registered. Maybe I am missing out on an opportunity. My only real issue is having bulls around again. I don't have enough pen or pasture area to keep them separated from cows and heifers I don't want them breeding.
I happen to agree with you on the obligations of the seller.

Regarding selling bulls. The market is broad. It ranges from unregistered bulls that have a primary breed influence. Some producers are looking for a live calf and not intending to make significant improvement in the genetics of their herd which is absolutely their business. It ranges all the way up to producers looking for a specific registered breed and even sired by a specific bull.

In fact, I have had buyers order heifers from me with a specific request that they be AIed to Cowboy Cut. The person who did that is a User on this board.

I think it is up to you BBG. Regardless of the kind of bull you produce, there is someone out there looking for that kind of bull.
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Nesikep » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:48 am

There are different types of molds
One is from when the hay is baled with too much moisture and it heats up, that's the bad stuff.
The other is from hay that got wet when in the stack, usually never heats up, it's not nearly as dangerous. The type of hay also makes a difference, as well as the stage of gestation.. I was told it's most dangerous in the last 2 months.

For years we didn't have a hay shed.. the top two layers and the bottom layer weren't nice, but they ate it and we never had a problem.


Who do you sell animals to? well, when you sell to the sale barn, you certainly have no control over it.. What's the definition of abuse? To some people it would be not housing animals in a barn when it's cold.. Mine stand outside no matter what the temps are, as long as the bellies are kept full they seem to do fine
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by ALACOWMAN » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:03 pm

bigbluegrass wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:00 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:34 pm
Do any of you who sell livestock via private treaty ever screen the buyer?
I do not screen potential buyers for their ability to care for the animal. I do screen for their ability to pay. I assume that if a person is willing to pay for cattle, it is in their best interest to care for that animal. Obviously there is a wide range of opinions on how to best care for an cow. IMHO the only opinion that matters is that of the owner.
it matters more than you think when those Bulls wind up in the pasture of a idiot..he maintains the bull in a condition, are his cows..where he's unable too settle them.."""no fault of your own"""but you can bet those guys are the first too tell others your Bulls are sorry and not to buy from you ..and 90# of them they have no trouble with the ability to pay for it..and those are the worst..
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:12 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:03 pm
bigbluegrass wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:00 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:34 pm
Do any of you who sell livestock via private treaty ever screen the buyer?
it matters more than you think when those Bulls wind up in the pasture of a idiot..he maintains the bull in a condition, where he's unable too settle cows.."""no fault of your own"""but you can bet those guys are the first too tell others your Bulls are sorry and not to buy from you ..and 90# of them they have no trouble with the ability to pay for it..and those are the worst..
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Re: Purebred Angus bulls without papers

Post by Mod2 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:08 pm

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