What I've been breeding towards

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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Brute 23
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Brute 23 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:55 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:51 am
Brute 23 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:54 pm
People can talk all day about it being cheaper to buy them but there is nothing like the feeling of making your replacement cows and getting them how you want them. Once you get in a rhythm where you know you have x amount coming in and x amount going out it's a good feeling. Not having to hunt up cattle or worry about where your going to get screwed next is worth every penny.
On this we will agree to disagree grasshopper.

I can’t raise them like this for 1200 bucks.
Those cattle will melt like an ice cream cone. They push that feed they sell down their throats.

I've actually seen heifers I culled and sold at the auction barn pop up on there all butter ball fat.


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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:12 am

Yea right melted to 1400+ lbs.
It’s just not what you want to do so it’s wrong. J&J is just one example Crockett regularly has replacement sales cheaper than you can raise one.
Tax wise I am way ahead on the bought heifer.

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I run sale-barn cattle.

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Brute 23 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:51 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:12 am
Yea right melted to 1400+ lbs.
It’s just not what you want to do so it’s wrong. J&J is just one example Crockett regularly has replacement sales cheaper than you can raise one.
Tax wise I am way ahead on the bought heifer.

Image
I'm speaking from actual experience with J&J cattle. I play around and chase women not far from their operation. My understanding is they raise a lot of cattle but also buy and flip a lot. Like any thing else it will be a crap shoot.

The heifers of ours they ended up with did not need to be made fat like that. They were good and fleshy when I hauled them and were going to be fine mommas.

We retain and buy cattle. I go with the best bang for the buck. If I find a great buy that are better than we have in the pen I sell ours and turn out the bought ones. If we raised better ones than I can buy we turned out the retained heifers. As I have said before every ones operation is different so there is not a one size fits all statement that will apply to every one. be nice, the prices year to year can effect which is the better route.

I've asked for the math on those tax statements before and never got a straight answer. When ever any one would like to break it down for me I'm all ears.
Well, if ranching's so hard, why do we do it?
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:27 pm

You might have had a bad experience with J&J they have a very successful business model.
They are not the only one packaging replacements.
Everyone is turning a profit on those replacements cept the fellow raising them.
It’s real simple Brute if that raised heifer drops dead there is no write off in her but the inputs.
The purchased heifer you can write off her cost along with her inputs.
The bought heifer has depreciation value the retained zilch,zero, nada.
I run sale-barn cattle.

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm

Tax wise I agree with CB but Brute makes some solid points too. Nothing like the feeling of seeing a heifer you picked to retain as a calf blossom into a productive cow.
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Stocker Steve » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:08 pm

[quote="Caustic Burno"
Everyone is turning a profit on those replacements cept the fellow raising them.
It’s real simple Brute if that raised heifer drops dead there is no write off in her but the inputs.
The purchased heifer you can write off her cost along with her inputs.
The bought heifer has depreciation value the retained zilch,zero, nada.
[/quote]

Open Jersey heifers are $300 to $500 here. Should I be buying them and breeding them Brahma ?
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Stocker Steve » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:17 pm

[quote="Brute 23"
I've asked for the math on those tax statements before and never got a straight answer. When ever any one would like to break it down for me I'm all ears.
[/quote]

My heifers don't die, unless I put them in the freezer. :hat: Got one high headed be nice going next week.

I think the tax angle for high income CT guys like us is to buy heifers, run them on leased pasture for a couple years, then sell them "paying" a 0% capital gains tax rate. Are you in on this CB?
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Nesikep » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:28 pm

Don't know your specific tax laws, but around here's it's exactly the same of you keep a replacement or sell your heifers and buy replacements

If you sell the heifer, that's income they for the year she's sold.. if you buy the heifer, that's an expense the year she's bought, so if you sell and buy another one for the same price, the same year, you're not better off.

If the purchased one falls over dead, it doesn't matter, you've already written her off when you bought her and can't be expensed twice.. if the kept replacement falls over dead, she was never income, so she can't be expensed. Feed, salt, and the other cash costs are all expenses you can write off regardless.
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:55 pm

Nesikep wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:28 pm
Don't know your specific tax laws, but around here's it's exactly the same of you keep a replacement or sell your heifers and buy replacements

If you sell the heifer, that's income they for the year she's sold.. if you buy the heifer, that's an expense the year she's bought, so if you sell and buy another one for the same price, the same year, you're not better off.

If the purchased one falls over dead, it doesn't matter, you've already written her off when you bought her and can't be expensed twice.. if the kept replacement falls over dead, she was never income, so she can't be expensed. Feed, salt, and the other cash costs are all expenses you can write off regardless.
You can deprecate the cost of the bought heifer and write off inputs.
The inputs are higher on the retained heifer versus the cost of purchasing a heifer.
You have two years in the heifer with no return to the operation as well as the dam. The dam cost 1100 bucks for two years at 1.50 a day and never returned a penny for two years. From weaning of the heifer until calving you have 800 in her at 1.50 a day so your retained heifer is costing right a 2k and nothing returned to the operation.
Retaining is fine just don’t sugarcoat the cost.
I run sale-barn cattle.

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Stocker Steve » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:21 pm

Buying replacements is fine just don't over state the cost of retaining in current market:

500 x $1.30 is $650 for a retained heifer.
Costs will vary but $1/day should easily feed a small one in cow country.
So 650 + 365 is U$S 1,015 to become a basic bred heifer. Add in vet and breeding and interest costs gets you up to about $ 1,100. Opens are sold for a premium as freezer beef. OH varies but you could add $100.

Yes, I can buy a bred heifer for less than $1,200 if I shop around and I am willing to sort.
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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Brute 23 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:31 pm

Nesikep wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:28 pm
Don't know your specific tax laws, but around here's it's exactly the same of you keep a replacement or sell your heifers and buy replacements

If you sell the heifer, that's income they for the year she's sold.. if you buy the heifer, that's an expense the year she's bought, so if you sell and buy another one for the same price, the same year, you're not better off.

If the purchased one falls over dead, it doesn't matter, you've already written her off when you bought her and can't be expensed twice.. if the kept replacement falls over dead, she was never income, so she can't be expensed. Feed, salt, and the other cash costs are all expenses you can write off regardless.
Exactly... it's a wash. By the time you pay for the income on the sold calf, even with depreciation on the bought your equaling out. Plus, dont forget if you sell the animal for more than the depreciated value it's still taxable.

Actually there is a strong case to be made retaining because you can defer the taxes from selling that calf and grow your asset base much like a tax sheltered retirement plan.

It costs us, on avg $350 per momma cow to raise a calf, annually. Some will say that is too low but it's done by feeding less than 1 bale per head per year. One of the perks of a mild winter in the south.

So you take $350 for the cost to raise that calf to weaning. Now, you did not generate income by selling her so that is another cost. Pick a number, I'll go $650... at $1000 total. Let's say you wean at 7 months, breed at 16 months, you got 9 months on the dole. 9 x 30.4 = 273.6 days @ $1 per day... another $275. Now I'm at $1275. That replacement heifer's bill ends the day she is bred. Once she is bred her costs now go against her calf, not retaining a heifer costs. She is just like any other cow in the herd once she is bred.

Even if you factor a group not calving out 100% and some misc if you think some of my costs were low... from the pics I posted of cattle... does any one here think they can buy that quality of animals, consistently cheaper, year in, year out?

If you can let me know... I'll bring the check book and make sure there is even a finders fee in there for you.

I can tell you it darn sure wont be from from no cattle peddlers like J&J, Clay Nahovitza, or any of the other FB personalities.
Well, if ranching's so hard, why do we do it?
Because its one be nice of a life, Tate. One be nice of a life.
- John Dutton

I would rather cut off my right arm, than live under tyranny!

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by ALACOWMAN » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:47 pm

Post Oak wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:33 pm
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:36 pm
Image their sire..
Who’s the daddy of that bull?

Image
as an adult,it's clear to me now...why Ernest T Bass, threw rocks at people..

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:50 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:47 pm
Post Oak wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:33 pm
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:36 pm
Image their sire..
Who’s the daddy of that bull?

Image
Been a long time since we argued about bulls standing in tall grass or deep straw.
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Sometimes you do have to throw out the babies with the bath water.

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:56 pm

He looks terrific though.
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Sometimes you do have to throw out the babies with the bath water.

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Re: What I've been breeding towards

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:00 pm

Brute 23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:31 pm
Nesikep wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:28 pm
Don't know your specific tax laws, but around here's it's exactly the same of you keep a replacement or sell your heifers and buy replacements

If you sell the heifer, that's income they for the year she's sold.. if you buy the heifer, that's an expense the year she's bought, so if you sell and buy another one for the same price, the same year, you're not better off.

If the purchased one falls over dead, it doesn't matter, you've already written her off when you bought her and can't be expensed twice.. if the kept replacement falls over dead, she was never income, so she can't be expensed. Feed, salt, and the other cash costs are all expenses you can write off regardless.
Exactly... it's a wash. By the time you pay for the income on the sold calf, even with depreciation on the bought your equaling out. Plus, dont forget if you sell the animal for more than the depreciated value it's still taxable.

Actually there is a strong case to be made retaining because you can defer the taxes from selling that calf and grow your asset base much like a tax sheltered retirement plan.

It costs us, on avg $350 per momma cow to raise a calf, annually. Some will say that is too low but it's done by feeding less than 1 bale per head per year. One of the perks of a mild winter in the south.

So you take $350 for the cost to raise that calf to weaning. Now, you did not generate income by selling her so that is another cost. Pick a number, I'll go $650... at $1000 total. Let's say you wean at 7 months, breed at 16 months, you got 9 months on the dole. 9 x 30.4 = 273.6 days @ $1 per day... another $275. Now I'm at $1275. That replacement heifer's bill ends the day she is bred. Once she is bred her costs now go against her calf, not retaining a heifer costs. She is just like any other cow in the herd once she is bred.

Even if you factor a group not calving out 100% and some misc if you think some of my costs were low... from the pics I posted of cattle... does any one here think they can buy that quality of animals, consistently cheaper, year in, year out?

If you can let me know... I'll bring the check book and make sure there is even a finders fee in there for you.

I can tell you it darn sure wont be from from no cattle peddlers like J&J, Clay Nahovitza, or any of the other FB personalities.

I have not bought anything from the young men at J&J it looks to me we should be trying more so to emulate them versus envy.
They have an impressive marketing model along with internet auction.
They peddle as you say heifers, cows and bulls. Isn’t that the exact same thing the seed stock producer and the auction barn is doing? Aren’t you a cow peddler?
With today’s margins looks to me from the outside looking in they found a more efficient mousetrap.

There is no advantage to retaining heifers in a crossbred cow calf operation using a terminal bull.
The only benefits to retaining is genetic improvement.
You better sharpen that pencil that dam returned nothing nor the heifer to the bottom line for two years.
You have four years worth of upkeep in two cows, with today’s margins that doesn’t pencil out.
I run sale-barn cattle.

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