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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 am
Please tell us about your herd, history, bulls used, successes, failures, etc. Pics would be nice too.
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:50 pm
I have written this post several times but got timed out before I got it posted.
Part. 1 My ezperiences through the time of dwarfism.
We are a commercial, open range cattle operation and have been for 145 years. In 1908 my great grandfather purchased a number of registered horned Hereford females as well as bulls. They finally turned those animals progeny into the commercial herd in the early 30s. When I came on the management scene in the mid 50s the dwarfism thing was in full swing. We had used Thornton Ranch Triumphs out of a Denver champion or class winner, Baca Dukes from the St. Luis Maria Baca Grant ranch, and Alpine Dominos from Trails End Ranch. They were all carriers or "dirty" although we actually had very few dwarf calves. While looking for some "clean" bulls we ran across a CK bull that we just loved. That led us to the CK ranch where we purchased bulls for several years to clean up the mess and have a source large enough to pick a number of bulls from. At that time they advertised 222 bulls in their sale.
At this time we decided to re-establish a purebred herd to produce our own bulls. The theory was that where else could we pick the top calves every year for our bull needs. The fad was still for small cattle so we bought some heifers from Miller and Martensen from Hayden, Colorado and a couple of bulls. They proved to be just too small and were prone to the brisket problem. One bull from them never sired a calf that could reach 1 year of age. They were a failure and mistake.
From that point we went to Franklin Nash for some females and bulls that worked great except for the disposition. We owned quite a few herd bulls in partnership with Franklin. At this time we also used Superior E468 who was straight Anxiety 4th or "in the temple". He was a great bull with length, muscle, thickness and did us a world of good except for the udders which sloped too much from front to rear.
Next came several bulls from Carl Martin of Menard Texas. Carl was as much of a maverick as Ferry Carpenter or more. He was one of the most decorated veterans from WW2. He had basically Anxiety 4th cattle but were not straight enough to be in the temple.
To be continued.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:17 am
Continued from dwarfism.
Carl Martin had a great ranch just out of Menard, Texas. Carl took me on almost like a son for about 10 years in the late 60s and early 70s. I visited his ranch every year and he came to mine a couple of times. The first three years I spent just trying to convince him to sell me a bull. I guess he thought I was a spy from the AHA crowd who he hated. He finally let me have Prince Blanchard 170, a Mischief Return, Lamplighter. 170 was pretty femine but really bred outstanding females that we still have lots of descendents of. Later we got Blanchard Lad 211 and Blanchard Lad 212. These two were much more masculine but still are the foundation sires of our present day females.
During the earlier years of this time the dwarfism thing took an interesting turn. The AHA decided to clean up the mess by indentifying all the carriers by a pedigree check. The other alternative was a progeny test accomplished by breeding a bull to at least 15 of his own daughters and then if there were no dwarfs the bull could be called clean. Both methods were successful but the AHA never sanctioned the progeny test which left a cloud over the cattle that were cleared that way. The argument raged on over the merits of both methods for years much like the Polled Horned argument of today with just as much passion, animosity, and unrelenting. Our cattle were pedigree clean but many of our friends went the other way. I got caught some when I purchased some cows that were progeny clean but I had to put them in the commercials.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:12 am
Idaman,I am not a Hereford guy but I greatly admire longterm focused breeding programs and have greatly enjoyed your posts and your story so far.In chapter one you mentioned the CK ranch and I am assuming that is the Kansas operation but it made me think of the CK brand in Montana and wondered what you knew of that herd.Don't mean to get you off subject and if you answer me please get back to your story asap.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:53 am
I am but a small-time amateur, but I also greatly enjoy reading your posts - lots of history and issues I didn't know about, and the effort it takes to make good cattle.
I hope the problems with posting here don't limit your writing. I have been frustrated before when spending alot of time writing and hit the submit button and it doesn't work and my words disappear. I've learned before hitting submit, to highlight the writing, right click and copy, then if it doesn't work you have it saved and can re-open a new blank field and paste what you have.
My other thought is that you just made a nice outline for the book you should write. So you could start writing in a Word program and then just copy and paste tidbits over to here.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:02 pm
Thank you Idaman, please continue.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:05 pm
Thanks again for that pasting tip it saved the last segment.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:26 pm
After the Martin bulls we purchased two Anxiety 4th bulls from Eaton Becker of Wilsall, Montana. These bulls were Axtell bred and had more size than what we had had. One of the bulls was a full brother of his 80th bull that he relied on so much in his later years.
Next came a son of Chris Jacobsens big cow and later a full brother to him from the Hunter herd dispersion. These were pretty large bulls with the one from Chris being much larger. These cattle really produced a lot of females for us.
At this time we moved from Colorado to British Columbia and we moved our purebreds with us. We had a terrible time with the blue tongue testing which was no more than a trade barrier by the Canadians. This move forced a change in our breeding direction because of the colder weather. The Martin cattle just wouldn't do under those conditions but needless to say the Becker cattle and the Jacobsen cattle did great.The more we were away from a the straight Martin animal then the next generations did very well. They were also a very different phenotype than the Canadian cattle we were around. For commercial cattle we bought an entire herd of local cows we called the TJ cows. They were great range cows and moved right in and went to work. The ONLY problem we had with them was getting their daughters to rebreed after their first calf but this was the fault of the ranch and the environment.
At this time I had to learn to market under the BC marketing conditions which were complicated by the distance to the feedlots in Alberta and Ontario. You needed to sell cattle in load lots so that a load didn't have to be put together for the long haul. With my experience in marketing uniform cattle influenced by my working in the Denver carloads for M&M I decided that that would work again. There was a big, 20,000 head auction put on in September around Kamloops called the Panorama. We consigned several hundred steers to that sale. When the time came we sorted the steers in very uniform load lots and told the sale barn that we wanted them run right off of our trucks into the ring for sale. To our surprise they topped the sale and that even more convinced me that uniformity was money in my pocket and we bred the purebred cattle with that in mind. We needed about 50 bulls for turnout there and at one time we had 50 3/4 to 15/16 brothers to be used on the commercial cows. Without our own purebred cows we could never had gotten that done.
One of the buyers of our Panorama loads was agreat old cattle buyer by the name of Lew Williams that really took us under his arm and from then bought everything we sold and did all of our order buying. Lew asked me one fall, that we had several hundred calves in a feedlot in Kamloops, if we would let him use small numbers of our calves to fill out those big eastern loads. He guaranteed to pay us a premiun and buy what we had left at the end of the shipping season. We agreed and did very well with this arragement. One time we had a few one eyed and crippled heifers left so Lew said that he wanted to sent them to a little Saturday pig market sale that did very well on ditch bank calves. We agreed and the local pig farmer hauled them about 60 miles to the sale. When Lew got the check he called me and we had a great laugh, Those heifers averaged nearly $1.34 a pound even back then. We decided that they sold so well out of sympathy from the ditch bank people.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:08 pm
Idaman, you just brought up another breeder that I'd love to learn more about - Eaton Becker. I met him once but didn't get to talk to him long. The first AI work I did was using semen from BHR Young Axtell 80. I know someone who still has 80th semen on hand and is using it to perpetuate what few Anxiety 4th cattle are left (besides Lents herd)
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:00 pm
Hereford.US - I have wondered since your post about splitting with your father over the Anxiety 4th issue why you didn't both just compromise and go for a Becker bull for the size and still stay in the temple. The bull I owned and used was a full brother to the 80th but a few years younger. I would love to get in contact with your friend that has 80th semen and see if he might have a bull we could use and go back a bit into the past with our cows. I sure wouldn't be afraid of using another Becker type bull.
My experiences with Eaton Becker were very limited as I was only there one time when I bought the bulls. He was a very tall and crusty individual but he was suffering from cancer so our stay and conversation was very limited. I fell in love with his cows and just had to have a bull. I picked the best looking yearling he had but the 80th brother kept bothering me so I broke down and bought him as well even though he didn't have as much eye appeal. You know the rest of the story that he was by far the best breeder. I am sure Eaton must have died shortly after we were there and I kind of lost track of the cattle. We followed those bulls with the Jacobsen bulls and then that herd dispersed under Wade.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:28 pm
The Franklin Nash cattle we started our cows from were very hearty cattle. A little on the smaller side but maybe moderate today. They were originally wintered out at 9000 feet so they were doers. That herd is still somewhat intact in Kansas under the Deewall Family name. Mrs. Deewall was Franklins daughter. In the later years they used a bull called The Arrow who was very L1 and moved away from their original Pres. Mischief lines which were so linebred. I could buy L1 bulls anywhere so that dampened my interest in that line.
Franklin and I did a lot together in the 60s and 70s. We started a bull test called Hereford Bulls Inc. together and ran it for a few years. We only tested Hereford bulls and then had a sale. Franklin was still so adamant on the clean by pedigree issue that he originally only wanted pedigree clean bulls but the numbers just forced him to compromise.
The Nash cattle had an attitude problem that I understand has been corrected by the L1s. We still get a killer calf once in a while even though they are at least 3 generations removed. Our best old cow had gentle heifers but killer bulls. We really wanted to use one of her calves and did but his daughters would hunt you up.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:48 pm
It is good to hear from you and about what you have been up to, since leaving Colo. We are new to the boards, but have been following them for some time. There have been times that we have wanted to jump in, and finally took the bull by the horns, and are actually posting a reply. We have had some Franklin Nash Cattle since 1991 and can honestly testify that we have never had a problem with disposition. I think it has to do with how they are handled. We are around them a lot, don't own a horse, and wouldn't keep the best one, if we couldn't handle it. They are smart cattle, learn fast and are super easy to handle.
When Franklin introduced The Arrow, he did it with the ultimate enthusiasm, and never looked back. The Arrow, traced directly back to Advance Domino 20 in 8 generations. The Arrow was out of a super good cow and contributed in a big way, to the Nash herd for 13 years. He crossed extremely well on the Nash linebred cattle. If the Arrow hadn't been a superior individual, he wouldn't have gotten a second glance from Franklin, let alone 13 breeding seasons!
Franklin followed The Arrow with ADV Z 146, who was a son of Triple Pres, out of a Misch Real daughter. Both Triple Pres and Misch Real traced directly back to Pres Misch 68, one of Franklin's foundation sires. The Arrow and ADV Z146( Z146 has been pictured on these boards several times) complimented each other in many crosses.
It was Franklin's belief, that ever so often, he needed to bring in a partial out cross bull, that traced back to his breeding.
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:55 pm
1914 Hereford - Welcome to the discussion. I am interested in your involvment with the Nash Cattle.
I made quite a long post about my experiences with Franklin and his cattle which were very extensive. I lost the post but will have a go at redoing it tomorrow.
Just believe me that prior to The Arrow they were definitely wild. It was a known fact at the time all over Colorado.
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:05 am
I'm enjoying reading your posts Idaman, keep them coming. From reading your posts I think you just might recognize these mountains.
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:05 am
I am reading every line. Very interesting Please continue.