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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:33 am
by redcowsrule33
3waycross wrote:
redcowsrule33 wrote:
3waycross wrote:On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......


In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.


I didn't write that!

Didn't intentionally misrepresent you, 3 way, just didn't notice the wrong author was on the quote after I pared back the quotations. Sorry 'bout that.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:48 pm
by Nesikep
I have a bit of a question, though I do see the point of the article, and I'm not in a position where I can take advantage of it...

It doesn't sound like it matters too much how many breeds the cows have in them (10 way cross anyone?), but more that they are not bred back to a breed that they are most related to...

If my prior assumption is at least partly accurate, then I can make use of this model to an extent. My cows are mostly 3 way crosses (herf, RA or Saler, and Shorthorn), with some being 2 way crosses (Herf, SH or GV)... In all cases Hereford is the least, however I don't plan on going back to that, so I'm looking into Saler, Simm or Limo bulls for the future, but it will be a number of years before I get new bull (time to research).

does this sound reasonable?

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:40 am
by Caustic Burno
Nesikep wrote:I have a bit of a question, though I do see the point of the article, and I'm not in a position where I can take advantage of it...

It doesn't sound like it matters too much how many breeds the cows have in them (10 way cross anyone?), but more that they are not bred back to a breed that they are most related to...

If my prior assumption is at least partly accurate, then I can make use of this model to an extent. My cows are mostly 3 way crosses (herf, RA or Saler, and Shorthorn), with some being 2 way crosses (Herf, SH or GV)... In all cases Hereford is the least, however I don't plan on going back to that, so I'm looking into Saler, Simm or Limo bulls for the future, but it will be a number of years before I get new bull (time to research).

does this sound reasonable?



Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:09 am
by dun
Caustic Burno wrote:Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Why would it be any worse the angus Hereford?

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:55 am
by Caustic Burno
dun wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Why would it be any worse the angus Hereford?


Dun I have no clue but in studies it gives the lowest weaning rates of the crosses. The reason being English they have a common ancestory and been selected for many of the same traits. Angus is a little better but not much it is just popular.
There are much better crosses for hybred vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.
.
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 152web.pdf

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:13 am
by dun
Caustic Burno wrote:
dun wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Why would it be any worse the angus Hereford?


Dun I have no clue but in studies it gives the lowest weaning rates of the crosses. The reason being English they have a common ancestory and been selected for many of the same traits. Angus is a little better but not much it is just popular.
There are much better crosses for hybred vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.
.
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 152web.pdf

Interesting. As screwed up as Shorthorns have gotten with all of the chi and maine influence I would expect them to do better then straight british. When we had the old style Shorthorns that weren;t all crossed up they did well with Angus and Lincoln Reds and even the Gerts put some serious growth on them. Remember I'm talking 30 plus years ago. Haven;t seen enough Shorthorns lately that I would waste my time with.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:43 am
by ALACOWMAN
never heard of lincoln reds before

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:30 pm
by dun
ALACOWMAN wrote:never heard of lincoln reds before

We used them AI in the 70s. Tiny calves at birth that grew like mad and ended up almost as big as the continental breeds of the time.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:51 pm
by Stocker Steve
[quote="Caustic Burno"]
There are much better crosses for hybrid vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.


Char?

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:00 pm
by Caustic Burno
Stocker Steve wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:There are much better crosses for hybrid vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.


Char?



Char will get you there introduce some Brahman Charbray, Brangus etc. and get 20% free.
http://www.ionet.net/~brahman/brahmanF.html

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:20 am
by Stocker Steve
Interesting link. What kind of SH do they have in Oklahoma - - according to this they out gain all the continental breeds?

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:34 am
by Caustic Burno
Stocker Steve wrote:Interesting link. What kind of SH do they have in Oklahoma - - according to this they out gain all the continental breeds?


Neighbor has a registered herd, they are big cow's . He does very well with them selling to the show bunch.
Calves grow good but he takes a hit at the salebarn, I always figured it was the wild color's. Color would make you think longhorn influence, conformation rules that out, cause there is not one hatchet be nice calf in the bunch.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:12 pm
by Nesikep
We started out our herd with a bunch of herf cows, some may have had RA or simm in them. What I'm trying to say is keep breeding your cows to a new breed, you should end up with heterosis just the same, you'd just have to give very long descriptions of the breed of every cow... The point of the article seems to be don't breed a crossbred cow to a bull to which she has a breed relation to.

I can see it in our herd, we had 2 of our best cows (1/2 Shorthorn) give us 2 heifer calves in a row, the first year they were line bred, the second year they were bred to a different shorthorn bull, and none of the 4 heifers turned out to be much.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:05 pm
by Ouachita
This thread makes my head spin. I've got to post some pictures of my cattle, so you folks can critique them, tell me what you would keep or cull, and what bull you would put with them. Sound OK? Of course I'll start a new thread. Don't wanna muddy this one up with pics of my cattle

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:22 pm
by Stocker Steve
Caustic Burno wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:Interesting link. What kind of SH do they have in Oklahoma - - according to this they out gain all the continental breeds?


Neighbor has a registered herd, they are big cow's . He does very well with them selling to the show bunch.
Calves grow good but he takes a hit at the salebarn,


My local SH cows are going fast. Seem have have a lot of poor bags or bottle teats or odd colored calves. I have seen some really nice red sh north and west of here.
Have been raising a lot of HxA calves recently. I really like good Herf cows and pink eye vaccine. Need to buy more. Some variation in the wf calves but I only keep the great ones. :nod:
Used 2 limi bulls on the cows last year. Lots more muscle in the calves. Will be interesting to see how they sell.
Used low BW angus on the heifers last year. Calves look like goats compared to the Limi x.