Hammonds Pardoned.

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Bestoutwest
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bestoutwest » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:22 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:I have, just can't get a straight answer.


This might be the pun of the year.

I think the answer on this case lies in the middle. I have read articles that stated they were covering up their poaching, and another that stated they shifted fires that put FF's in danger. On the other hand there's articles that say they were just doing a burn that got out of control. Who knows.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:25 pm

Bestoutwest wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I have, just can't get a straight answer.


This might be the pun of the year.

I think the answer on this case lies in the middle. I have read articles that stated they were covering up their poaching, and another that stated they shifted fires that put FF's in danger. On the other hand there's articles that say they were just doing a burn that got out of control. Who knows.


Who knows? No one knows. Don't forget the immortal teachings of Father True Grit:

DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU READ!!!

I don't take it quite as far as Father Grit but I do agree with him on commentary. And 90% of what we read and hear is commentary. Commentary is the intrepretion of information from the perspective of the author. The author's objective is to use his command of words to make the information persuade us to his perspective.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bestoutwest » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:35 pm

[quote="Bright Raven"]Who knows? No one knows. Don't forget the immortal teachings of Father True Grit:

DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU READ!!!

I don't take it quite as far as Father Grit but I do agree with him on commentary. And 90% of what we read and hear is commentary. Commentary is the intrepretion of information from the perspective of the author. The author's objective is to use his command of words to make the information persuade us to his perspective.[/quote]

My wife was on a pretty large financial trial and after it was done she read the articles about it and pointed out all the inaccuracies. I have a friend who is a state trooper and he was telling me that you have a tattooed, known gang member in court, and you cannot mention it. So, there's tons of things that get left out by both the papers and the courts.

Your above quote is what infuriates me the most about our current state of media. If you read CNN everything Trump does is evil, vile, villainous. Fox pretty much makes him out to be the second coming of Christ. I could go on, but those are the two biggies. Both are pandering to their base audiences, and those of us that want accurate news are left with nowhere to go.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby ga.prime » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:40 pm

Bestoutwest wrote:I think the answer on this case lies in the middle. I have read articles that stated they were covering up their poaching, and another that stated they shifted fires that put FF's in danger. On the other hand there's articles that say they were just doing a burn that got out of control. Who knows.

Maybe the jury that found them guilty of two counts of arson in federal court? Burning up a poaching scene where they had slaughtered a herd of deer according to witnesses and in a separate incident setting fires in the night that hemmed in sleeping firefighters.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:56 pm

Bestoutwest wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I have, just can't get a straight answer.


This might be the pun of the year.


Best. I don't care what the others say, Grit is a lot more intelligent than some folks think.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bestoutwest » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:01 pm

ga.prime wrote:
Bestoutwest wrote:I think the answer on this case lies in the middle. I have read articles that stated they were covering up their poaching, and another that stated they shifted fires that put FF's in danger. On the other hand there's articles that say they were just doing a burn that got out of control. Who knows.

Maybe the jury that found them guilty of two counts of arson in federal court? Burning up a poaching scene where they had slaughtered a herd of deer according to witnesses and in a separate incident setting fires in the night that hemmed in sleeping firefighters.


Prosecutors have been know to exaggerate or even lie. Defense lawyers notoriously do the same. Juries get it wrong, and journalists are jaded. I’ve read accounts where they’re heroes, and others more villainous than Bin Laden. I lean toward the guilty party, but in reality us cattle board lawyers know very little of the specifics.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby ga.prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:57 am

Bestoutwest wrote:
ga.prime wrote:
Bestoutwest wrote:I think the answer on this case lies in the middle. I have read articles that stated they were covering up their poaching, and another that stated they shifted fires that put FF's in danger. On the other hand there's articles that say they were just doing a burn that got out of control. Who knows.

Maybe the jury that found them guilty of two counts of arson in federal court? Burning up a poaching scene where they had slaughtered a herd of deer according to witnesses and in a separate incident setting fires in the night that hemmed in sleeping firefighters.


Prosecutors have been know to exaggerate or even lie. Defense lawyers notoriously do the same. Juries get it wrong, and journalists are jaded. I’ve read accounts where they’re heroes, and others more villainous than Bin Laden. I lean toward the guilty party, but in reality us cattle board lawyers know very little of the specifics.

The jury heard the all evidence from both sides and voted to convict, end of argument. Did Hammonds appeal? No, because they made a deal to serve the sentence for the arson convictions in exchange for the prosecution to drop further criminal charges.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:29 am

ga.prime wrote:
Bestoutwest wrote:
ga.prime wrote:Maybe the jury that found them guilty of two counts of arson in federal court? Burning up a poaching scene where they had slaughtered a herd of deer according to witnesses and in a separate incident setting fires in the night that hemmed in sleeping firefighters.


Prosecutors have been know to exaggerate or even lie. Defense lawyers notoriously do the same. Juries get it wrong, and journalists are jaded. I’ve read accounts where they’re heroes, and others more villainous than Bin Laden. I lean toward the guilty party, but in reality us cattle board lawyers know very little of the specifics.

The jury heard the all evidence from both sides and voted to convict, end of argument. Did Hammonds appeal? No, because they made a deal to serve the sentence for the arson convictions in exchange for the prosecution to drop further criminal charges.

I didn't think the Hammonds had a "jury trial by their peers" I thought the Hammonds went in front of a federal judge? The Hammonds were never found guilty by a jury of anything.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:43 am

True Grit Farms wrote:I didn't think the Hammonds had a "jury trial by their peers" I thought the Hammonds went in front of a federal judge? The Hammonds were never found guilty by a jury of anything.


https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/east ... ars-prison

A jury sitting in Pendleton, Oregon found the Hammonds guilty of the arsons after a two-week trial in June 2012. The trial involved allegations that the Hammonds, owners of Hammond Ranches, Inc., ignited a series of fires on lands managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM), on which the Hammonds had grazing rights leased to them for their cattle operation.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:01 am

This is noteworthy. See underlined.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/east ... ars-prison
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:04 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I didn't think the Hammonds had a "jury trial by their peers" I thought the Hammonds went in front of a federal judge? The Hammonds were never found guilty by a jury of anything.


https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/east ... ars-prison

A jury sitting in Pendleton, Oregon found the Hammonds guilty of the arsons after a two-week trial in June 2012. The trial involved allegations that the Hammonds, owners of Hammond Ranches, Inc., ignited a series of fires on lands managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM), on which the Hammonds had grazing rights leased to them for their cattle operation.

Looks like I'm mistaken - wrong again, but I know I read somewhere that a jury never convicted them of any crimes. The Hammonds somehow pleaded guilty to lesser crimes before the trial was even over.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:07 am

Bright Raven wrote:This is noteworthy. See underlined.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/east ... ars-prison

I read all that hearsay a bunch of times. You think there was a axe to grind in that testimony, or paid testimony by the DA?
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:This is noteworthy. See underlined.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/east ... ars-prison

I read all that hearsay a bunch of times. You think there was a axe to grind in that testimony, or paid testimony by the DA?



Vince. Having worked in the Justice system most of my career. Justice is not like math or physics. It is a judgement. That is where the famous line - Arbitary and Capricious originated. The fact is, the Hammonds were convicted by a jury. That is the highest threshold there is short of Devine Judgement.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:This is noteworthy. See underlined.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/east ... ars-prison

I read all that hearsay a bunch of times. You think there was a axe to grind in that testimony, or paid testimony by the DA?



Vince. Having worked in the Justice system most of my career. Justice is not like math or physics. It is a judgement. That is where the famous line - Arbitary and Capricious originated. The fact is, the Hammonds were convicted by a jury. That is the highest threshold there is short of Devine Judgement.

The Hammond arson case was a court case culminating from 20-year-long legal disputes between Harney County, Oregon ranchers Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., 73, his son Steven Dwight Hammond, 46, and federal officials.[1] In 2012, both Hammonds were charged with several counts in relation to two fires in 2001 and 2006, and eventually convicted of two counts of arson on federal land. Knowing they would face the statutory minimum of five years, the men waived their right to appeal these convictions in exchange for dismissal of several unresolved charges. After this mid-trial agreement was entered, the Hammonds were sentenced to a few months in jail, which they served. In 2015, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit vacated these sentences because they were shorter than the statutory mandatory minimum. The Ninth Circuit remanded to the district court for resentencing. The district court subsequently re-sentenced both Hammonds to the mandatory minimum of five years in prison, with credit for time served.

I'm sure your right, but all this was all done by a judge not a jury. The Hammonds waived their right to appeal, so their judge friend could get them off easy. It didn't work out as planned. I've tried to find how the jury voted and can't seem to find it anywhere.
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Re: Hammonds Pardoned.

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:31 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:I read all that hearsay a bunch of times. You think there was a axe to grind in that testimony, or paid testimony by the DA?



Vince. Having worked in the Justice system most of my career. Justice is not like math or physics. It is a judgement. That is where the famous line - Arbitary and Capricious originated. The fact is, the Hammonds were convicted by a jury. That is the highest threshold there is short of Devine Judgement.

The Hammond arson case was a court case culminating from 20-year-long legal disputes between Harney County, Oregon ranchers Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., 73, his son Steven Dwight Hammond, 46, and federal officials.[1] In 2012, both Hammonds were charged with several counts in relation to two fires in 2001 and 2006, and eventually convicted of two counts of arson on federal land. Knowing they would face the statutory minimum of five years, the men waived their right to appeal these convictions in exchange for dismissal of several unresolved charges. After this mid-trial agreement was entered, the Hammonds were sentenced to a few months in jail, which they served. In 2015, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit vacated these sentences because they were shorter than the statutory mandatory minimum. The Ninth Circuit remanded to the district court for resentencing. The district court subsequently re-sentenced both Hammonds to the mandatory minimum of five years in prison, with credit for time served.

I'm sure your right, but all this was all done by a judge not a jury. The Hammonds waived their right to appeal, so their judge friend could get them off easy. It didn't work out as planned. I've tried to find how the jury voted and can't seem to find it anywhere.


Vince. US District Federal Court in criminal trial requires a unanimous verdict. So you are looking for something that does not exist.
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