Another shot dead by Mpls police

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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:26 pm

Sorry, I could not find the thread where this was previously discussed..

Amber Guyger, the former Dallas policewoman that shot and killed a man in his own apartment was indicted today by grand jury on murder charge. (not manslaughter)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/30/us/dalla ... index.html

A police officer who claimed she killed a Dallas man in his own apartment in the mistaken belief that he was in her home was indicted Friday on a murder charge, authorities said.

The indictment of Amber Guyger comes more than two months after she was arrested in the shooting death of Botham Shem Jean at the Dallas apartment complex where both lived -- a killing that sparked days of protests.
Guyger was arrested after the September shooting and charged with manslaughter by the Texas Rangers, the lead investigative agency, Dallas County District Attorney Faith Johnson said at a news conference.

When asked why the grand jury indicted Guyger on the more serious offense of murder, Johnson replied, "We presented the evidence and we explained the law."
Johnson said murder constitutes someone "intentionally and knowingly" committing a crime, whereas manslaughter involves "recklessly doing something."

"At the moment of the shooting it was a knowing ... offense," Johnson said.
The court records Friday showed both a manslaughter and murder charge entered in Guyger's file, but a clerk of court clerk confirmed that the murder charge is the one prosecutors are moving forward on.


The prosecutor's office appears to be treating this one just as it would if it had been any other person that pulled the trigger. So did the grand jury.[thumbs up]

For those that don't like CNN's version:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/dallas-office ... d=59525031
https://www.foxnews.com/us/grand-jury-d ... was-murder


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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by Bright Raven » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:51 pm

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by bball » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:58 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.


I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him? This is the part where a quality (if you believe such a thing exists) defense attorney could really muddy the waters. I figured a voluntary manslaughter charge was a lock. Murder could possibly present a challenge.
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by Bright Raven » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:01 pm

bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.


I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him? This is the part where a quality (if you believe such a thing exists) defense attorney could really muddy the waters. I figured a voluntary manslaughter charge was a lock. Murder could possibly present a challenge.


It will be a challenge. I know some attorneys are going to be excited to watch the defense strategy.
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:53 pm

bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.


I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him?


I'm not sure the prosecutor will go that route, tho he/she may if there was enough previous bad blood between the 2 that she may have had that plan from the get go.

I believe the prosecution will present that she at least intended to murder him from the moment she saw him in his apt that day even if she didn't recognize.

It's an apt...a rented place. How did she know it wasn't the building super or a maintenance guy or a contractor, an exterminator, or a city fire inspector or any of a 1/2 dozen other workers that routinely enter rented domiciles? (yes, the 'building' is supposed to give advance notice, but it was my experience that wasn't always followed thru on)
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by bball » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:06 pm

greybeard wrote:
bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.


I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him?


I'm not sure the prosecutor will go that route, tho he/she may if there was enough previous bad blood between the 2 that she may have had that plan from the get go.

I believe the prosecution will present that she at least intended to murder him from the moment she saw him in his apt that day even if she didn't recognize.

It's an apt...a rented place. How did she know it wasn't the building super or a maintenance guy or a contractor, an exterminator, or a city fire inspector or any of a 1/2 dozen other workers that routinely enter rented domiciles? (yes, the 'building' is supposed to give advance notice, but it was my experience that wasn't always followed thru on)


That will be a very important aspect- did the 2 have previous, negative interactions? This I do not know or if it has been publicly presented.
I do know that intent can be a difficult concept to prove in court. Will be interested to see both teams approach to this.
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:23 pm

Wish I could find the original discussion thread, but it may have been deleted because of the recent tech difficulties or because of interaction by "the usual suspects", but it seems I remember people saying she had previously had some issues with the guy because of noise.
She reportedly lived in an apt right or nearly right below him.
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:26 pm

How much time is needed to qualify for "with malice aforethought"?
Days, hours, minutes....seconds?
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by slick4591 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:08 am

bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.


I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him? This is the part where a quality (if you believe such a thing exists) defense attorney could really muddy the waters. I figured a voluntary manslaughter charge was a lock. Murder could possibly present a challenge.


I'm with ya. At this point her defense is out there. Way too late in the game to change it IMHO. The intent part of the culpable mental state will be the hardest to prove and they better have charged lesser offenses in the indictment. The State in their news conference yesterday basically said she "intended" to shoot the guy. Yes, she surely did, but unless they can show she had her mind made up to shoot the occupant before she opened the door they may well have overcharged her.
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by Dave » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:58 am

Between Murder 1 and Man slaughter is Murder 2. That would be my guess as to what the prosecution is going after. She didn't plan ahead to kill him but when she pulled her gun she did intend to do it.

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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:48 am

Dave wrote:Between Murder 1 and Man slaughter is Murder 2. That would be my guess as to what the prosecution is going after. She didn't plan ahead to kill him but when she pulled her gun she did intend to do it.


Which is why I asked what the 'time' qualification for 'malice aforethought' is.
What does "ahead' of time mean?
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by bball » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:35 pm

greybeard wrote:
Dave wrote:Between Murder 1 and Man slaughter is Murder 2. That would be my guess as to what the prosecution is going after. She didn't plan ahead to kill him but when she pulled her gun she did intend to do it.


Which is why I asked what the 'time' qualification for 'malice aforethought' is.
What does "ahead' of time mean?


This is what wiki has for malice aforethought:
In most common law jurisdictions, the American Law Institute's Model Penal Code, and in the various U.S. state statutes, which have codified homicide definitions, the term has been abandoned or substantially revised. The four states of mind that are now recognized as constituting "malice aforethought" in murder prosecutions are as follows:[18]

-intent to kill
-intent to inflict serious bodily injury
-extremely reckless disregard for the value of
human life
-felony murder rule
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:24 pm

I'm glad, that I haven't shot and killed everything and everybody that I 'perceived' as a threat to my life and well being.
I probably would have been bottle feeding a lot of calves, since I wouldn't have many momma cows left, at least 2 bulls would have gotten shot thru the X, the dog at the end of the lane that snarls at me every time I ride by there on my bike or 4 wheeler, would have been dead long ago, and every idiot driver that eased over too close to me on the 4 lane.

I'm equally glad I wasn't taught to do so, even in the Marines.. just to ensure my own safety.
First responders I always thought, were taught and understood they were taking a job that required putting their lives on the line for innocent law abiding citizens...not the other way around.
When did that change and who the blazes are the idiots responsible for teaching them the latter instead of the former?
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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by mwj » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:09 pm

Pick any civilian of any color in the same situation. Kill an unarmed person in there own home and say you were overworked and tired. How long would it take for them to be charged?
never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!!!!!!!

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Re: Another shot dead by Mpls police

Post by greybeard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:06 pm

mwj wrote:Pick any civilian of any color in the same situation. Kill an unarmed person in there own home and say you were overworked and tired. How long would it take for them to be charged?


About as long as it took to read that and type this.
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