Another school shooting

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Bright Raven
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:33 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:A guidance counselor is a Lawyer and gives guidance, a marriage counselor is not a Lawyer either and both counsel people. You don't need to be a Lawyer to counsel. I must not understand the definition of counsel, your thinking like the Lawyers want you to think.
The state should check with the victims family before the state agrees to anything. This can become a big deal in a hurry, McVeigh only killed 168 and destroyed millions because of the government's abuse of power.


I am not going to argue with the only person on this forum who does not recognize that persons trained in the art of law practice are known by labels including 1. Lawyer 2. Counsel/counselor 3. Attorney 4. Solicitor etc.

Definition: Lawyer - a person who practices or studies law; an attorney or a counselor.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:53 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:A guidance counselor is a Lawyer and gives guidance, a marriage counselor is not a Lawyer either and both counsel people. You don't need to be a Lawyer to counsel. I must not understand the definition of counsel, your thinking like the Lawyers want you to think.
The state should check with the victims family before the state agrees to anything. This can become a big deal in a hurry, McVeigh only killed 168 and destroyed millions because of the government's abuse of power.


I am not going to argue with the only person on this forum who does not recognize that persons trained in the art of law practice are known by labels including 1. Lawyer 2. Counsel/counselor 3. Attorney 4. Solicitor etc.

Definition: Lawyer - a person who practices or studies law; an attorney or a counselor.

coun·sel
ˈkounsəl/Submit
noun
1.
advice, especially that given formally.
synonyms: advice, guidance, counseling, direction, information; More
2.
the lawyer or lawyers conducting a case.
"the counsel for the defense"
synonyms: lawyer, advocate, attorney, attorney-at-law, counselor; More
verb
1.
give advice to (someone).
"he was counseled by his supporters to return to Germany"

The way I read the description of counsel is that, 2 out of 3 of the definitions of the word "counsel" is in my favor. If you'd shut up and listen you might even learn something today, or do you lack the ability to comprehend?
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:58 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:A guidance counselor is a Lawyer and gives guidance, a marriage counselor is not a Lawyer either and both counsel people. You don't need to be a Lawyer to counsel. I must not understand the definition of counsel, your thinking like the Lawyers want you to think.
The state should check with the victims family before the state agrees to anything. This can become a big deal in a hurry, McVeigh only killed 168 and destroyed millions because of the government's abuse of power.


I am not going to argue with the only person on this forum who does not recognize that persons trained in the art of law practice are known by labels including 1. Lawyer 2. Counsel/counselor 3. Attorney 4. Solicitor etc.

Definition: Lawyer - a person who practices or studies law; an attorney or a counselor.

coun·sel
ˈkounsəl/Submit
noun
1.
advice, especially that given formally.
synonyms: advice, guidance, counseling, direction, information; More
2.
the lawyer or lawyers conducting a case.
"the counsel for the defense"
synonyms: lawyer, advocate, attorney, attorney-at-law, counselor; More
verb
1.
give advice to (someone).
"he was counseled by his supporters to return to Germany"

The way I read the description of counsel is that, 2 out of 3 of the definitions of the word "counsel" is in my favor. If you'd shut up and listen you might even learn something today, or do you lack the ability to comprehend?


I give up. And I rarely do that.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby bball » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:00 pm

greybeard wrote:
I would only clarify that its a touch over generalized. We, as men, are killers by instinct. I do not agree that the females of our species are killers by instinct. Their instinct is to nurture, not kill.

Nurturing is but one of their instincts. Males also have other instincts but females of our species also possess the instinct to kill just as much as any other predator on this Earth.
I mean no offense in using the word 'predator' but mankind (male & female alike) is top of the food chain predator by any true definition of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... _rebellion

Look too, at the number of female royalty and female tyrants thru out history that have plunged their nations in to war.


While a case can be made, because some women in history have led violent rebellions, i still do not believe women are killers by nature. Not like men are. Do they have the ability? Yes. Certainly. However, this is not one of their primary instincts. Think hunter(historically male) gatherer(historically female). Crime statistics on violent crime and prison populations support this. Again, capable doesnt make it an instinct. The list of violent men in history would be infinitely longer than the wiki list posted above. We (humankind) are top of the food chain because of opposable thumbs and a highly developed brain, not our superior killer instincts. It is foolish to ignore the fact that every major religion(except 2) have laws against killing. So clearly, it has always been and always will be an issue.
If nothing else greybeard, you have me thinking. :tiphat:
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby hurleyjd » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:28 pm

Was the 19 year old shooter employed somewhere. You know the assault type rifles are not cheap. Did someone help him buy it. There is a lot of questions not answered here.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby greybeard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:13 pm

He worked at a retail outfit called Dollar Tree. Hadn't been employed there too long I don't think.
It was reported he did have his own credit card while living with another family before moving in with his last family in November. FBI did say the firearms were legally purchased..they didn't expound on it.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:18 pm

bball wrote:
While a case can be made, because some women in history have led violent rebellions, i still do not believe women are killers by nature. Not like men are. Do they have the ability? Yes. Certainly. However, this is not one of their primary instincts. Think hunter(historically male) gatherer(historically female). Crime statistics on violent crime and prison populations support this. Again, capable doesnt make it an instinct. The list of violent men in history would be infinitely longer than the wiki list posted above. We (humankind) are top of the food chain because of opposable thumbs and a highly developed brain, not our superior killer instincts. It is foolish to ignore the fact that every major religion(except 2) have laws against killing. So clearly, it has always been and always will be an issue.
If nothing else greybeard, you have me thinking. :tiphat:


I don't think you can biologically find support for the supposition that Homo sapiens are instinctive killers. In fact, with the evolution of the cerebrum in primates, instinct has been suppressed. Homo sapiens are rational animals that kill on a deliberative basis not instinctively.

Where did you get such an idea, Brad?
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby bball » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:33 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
bball wrote:
While a case can be made, because some women in history have led violent rebellions, i still do not believe women are killers by nature. Not like men are. Do they have the ability? Yes. Certainly. However, this is not one of their primary instincts. Think hunter(historically male) gatherer(historically female). Crime statistics on violent crime and prison populations support this. Again, capable doesnt make it an instinct. The list of violent men in history would be infinitely longer than the wiki list posted above. We (humankind) are top of the food chain because of opposable thumbs and a highly developed brain, not our superior killer instincts. It is foolish to ignore the fact that every major religion(except 2) have laws against killing. So clearly, it has always been and always will be an issue.
If nothing else greybeard, you have me thinking. :tiphat:


I don't think you can biologically find support for the supposition that Homo sapiens are instinctive killers. In fact, with the evolution of the cerebrum in primates, instinct has been suppressed. Homo sapiens are rational animals that kill on a deliberative basis not instinctively.

Where did you get such an idea, Brad?


Perhaps some cerebra are not as developed as others; consequently, the instinct to kill is heightened? Are we talking Fight or flight when we say instinct to kill?
You make an excellent point when you mention deliberate. Fight or flight would be my only objection to deliberate. Now, what makes one man chose fight while another, in the same circumstance, choses flight?
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:43 pm

bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
bball wrote:
While a case can be made, because some women in history have led violent rebellions, i still do not believe women are killers by nature. Not like men are. Do they have the ability? Yes. Certainly. However, this is not one of their primary instincts. Think hunter(historically male) gatherer(historically female). Crime statistics on violent crime and prison populations support this. Again, capable doesnt make it an instinct. The list of violent men in history would be infinitely longer than the wiki list posted above. We (humankind) are top of the food chain because of opposable thumbs and a highly developed brain, not our superior killer instincts. It is foolish to ignore the fact that every major religion(except 2) have laws against killing. So clearly, it has always been and always will be an issue.
If nothing else greybeard, you have me thinking. :tiphat:


I don't think you can biologically find support for the supposition that Homo sapiens are instinctive killers. In fact, with the evolution of the cerebrum in primates, instinct has been suppressed. Homo sapiens are rational animals that kill on a deliberative basis not instinctively.

Where did you get such an idea, Brad?


Perhaps some cerebra are not as developed as others; consequently, the instinct to kill is heightened? Are we talking Fight or flight when we say instinct to kill?
You make an excellent point when you mention deliberate. Fight or flight would be my only objection to deliberate. Now, what makes one man chose fight while another, in the same circumstance, choses flight?


Let's keep it simple. Humans are not instinct driven. We are the ultimate thinkers. The capacity to kill is based on a deliberate rational process. That is a function of the cerebrum. We have the capacity to rationally evaluate the act of killing. It is not an instinct like geese flying south in the late fall. A goose doesn't sit among its peers and decide - hey, let's fly south. Find some babes and enjoy the warm beach. No. Their brain is hard wired to fly south - instinct.

I cannot think of a single human action that is instinct driven. Humans evolved a cerebrum to take the place of instinct behavior.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby bball » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:59 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
I don't think you can biologically find support for the supposition that Homo sapiens are instinctive killers. In fact, with the evolution of the cerebrum in primates, instinct has been suppressed. Homo sapiens are rational animals that kill on a deliberative basis not instinctively.

Where did you get such an idea, Brad?


Perhaps some cerebra are not as developed as others; consequently, the instinct to kill is heightened? Are we talking Fight or flight when we say instinct to kill?
You make an excellent point when you mention deliberate. Fight or flight would be my only objection to deliberate. Now, what makes one man chose fight while another, in the same circumstance, choses flight?


Let's keep it simple. Humans are not instinct driven. We are the ultimate thinkers. The capacity to kill is based on a deliberate rational process. That is a function of the cerebrum. We have the capacity to rationally evaluate the act of killing. It is not an instinct like geese flying south in the late fall. A goose doesn't sit among its peers and decide - hey, let's fly south. Find some babes and enjoy the warm beach. No. Their brain is hard wired to fly south - instinct.

I cannot think of a single human action that is instinct driven. Humans evolved a cerebrum to take the place of instinct behavior.


Fight or flight is a survival instinct initiated in the amygdala. During situation of significant threat(real or perceived) this survival instinct triggers the sympathetic nervous system to engage..and all we have is put into fighting the threat or fleeing it. If a man kills another man during a fight or flight response, it would not be deliberate, but would be rare I expect.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:15 pm

bball wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
bball wrote:
Perhaps some cerebra are not as developed as others; consequently, the instinct to kill is heightened? Are we talking Fight or flight when we say instinct to kill?
You make an excellent point when you mention deliberate. Fight or flight would be my only objection to deliberate. Now, what makes one man chose fight while another, in the same circumstance, choses flight?


Let's keep it simple. Humans are not instinct driven. We are the ultimate thinkers. The capacity to kill is based on a deliberate rational process. That is a function of the cerebrum. We have the capacity to rationally evaluate the act of killing. It is not an instinct like geese flying south in the late fall. A goose doesn't sit among its peers and decide - hey, let's fly south. Find some babes and enjoy the warm beach. No. Their brain is hard wired to fly south - instinct.

I cannot think of a single human action that is instinct driven. Humans evolved a cerebrum to take the place of instinct behavior.


Fight or flight is a survival instinct initiated in the amygdala. During situation of significant threat(real or perceived) this survival instinct triggers the sympathetic nervous system to engage..and all we have is put into fighting the threat or fleeing it. If a man kills another man during a fight or flight response, it would not be deliberate, but would be rare I expect.


Brad,

There is a complex interaction of neurohormonal functions that are engaged during a perceived threat. Although some might act on the level of a fight or flight basis, the cerebrum is still processing information and a rational decision is in play.

This is where biology and law takes separate paths. On a biological basis, even under an amygdalaic initiated response, a millisecond is all that is needed for a rational cognitive process to over ride it. In law, deliberate homicide has a higher threshold. It gets complicated because the next step is premeditated deliberate homicide.

Keeping it simple, humans are not instinct driven animals. On that basis, the supposition that humans are instinctive killers is nonsense.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby greybeard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:23 pm

Cerebrum..No they use it to suppress the instinct, but it's still there and is still used..daily, all over the world..and if it weren't for laws of different types and fear of punishment (of different types, it would be much worse than it is now.

Take 99% of us out of our nice comfy environments and place us into a very hostile bloody environment and you will see just how quickly our centuries old instincts come to the forefront.

Look at the number of people posting on social media of all kinds that think (instinctively) that this shooter should be executed right this minute.
Get affronted in any way, and our first instinct is to respond in kind, but our civilized mind represses that instinct, but it's still there. We utilize instinct every day in our daily lives, but in our arrogance, believe it to be superior intellect. Driving, working, interaction with others..most of it is instinct. Sudden loud noise..the reaction is instinct. A knock on the door at 3am..instinctively think "this can't be good'. We aren't all that, believe me. Walk thru a "bad part of town", your head is instinctively on a swivel.
I suspect Ron, your assertion to the contrary is instinctive as well. You have difficulty accepting things that are contrary to how you want yourself to be viewed, because we all tend to view the world thru our own eyes rather than how the world really is..don't worry..most of us are the same way.
Last edited by greybeard on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:24 pm

greybeard wrote:No they use it to suppress the instinct, but it's still there and is still used..daily, all over the world..and if it weren't for laws of different types and fear of punishment (of different types, it would be much worse than it is now.

Look at the number of people posting on social media of all kinds that think (instinctively) that this shooter should be executed right this minute.
Get affronted in any way, and our first instinct is to respond in kind, but our civilized mind represses that instinct, but it's still there. We utilize instinct every day in our daily lives, but in our arrogance, believe it to be superior intellect. Driving, working, interaction with others..most of it is instinct. Sudden loud noise..the reaction is instinct. A knock on the door at 3am..instinctively think "this can't be good'. We aren't all that, believe me. Walk thru a "bad part of town", your head is instinctively on a swivel.
I suspect Ron, your assertion to the contrary is instinctive as well. You have difficulty accepting things that are contrary to how you want yourself to be viewed, because we all tend to view the world thru our own eyes rather than how the world really is..don't worry..most of us are the same way.


GB. You have a misunderstanding of instinct.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby greybeard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:27 pm

No I do not.
A fixed pattern of behavior to stimuli. Mental or physical response..
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:30 pm

None of us have the same definition of words as the Raven. I thought we've already been through that today? :D
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