No tution college

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True Grit Farms
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Re: No tution college

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:33 am

herofan wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Some still are, a good teacher makes a lasting impression on their students. I looked up a 9th grade math teacher to whip his azz and when I found him he was a little old man. We talked for hours and I could sorta see why he treated me like he did.


I agree that many still are and that respect is earned not given. I think the general perception of teachers vacillates with the involvement the teachers have with their union. When the union is upset and wanting more and teachers are doing better with their pay and benefits than the average person this just looks bad.


Personally, I think a teacher should make more than someone at an “average job.” Of course, I’m sure the definition of average could be an entirely different topic, but I see nothing wrong with teachers making more than the manager of McDonalds. I guess it shows priorities in the country.

I live in a rural area, so I don’t know opportunities in cities, but in my area, teachers make more than regular workers at fast food restaurants, department stores, and things like that. We don’t make more than the managers, major factories, or any other college graduates who have utilized their degree.

How many days a year do you work at the school? Around here a teacher averages $30.00+ per hour with nights, weekends and holidays off.
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Re: No tution college

Postby Jogeephus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:11 pm

herofan wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Some still are, a good teacher makes a lasting impression on their students. I looked up a 9th grade math teacher to whip his azz and when I found him he was a little old man. We talked for hours and I could sorta see why he treated me like he did.


I agree that many still are and that respect is earned not given. I think the general perception of teachers vacillates with the involvement the teachers have with their union. When the union is upset and wanting more and teachers are doing better with their pay and benefits than the average person this just looks bad.


Personally, I think a teacher should make more than someone at an “average job.” Of course, I’m sure the definition of average could be an entirely different topic, but I see nothing wrong with teachers making more than the manager of McDonalds. I guess it shows priorities in the country.

I live in a rural area, so I don’t know opportunities in cities, but in my area, teachers make more than regular workers at fast food restaurants, department stores, and things like that. We don’t make more than the managers, major factories, or any other college graduates who have utilized their degree.


Your question was about why has the opinion of teachers changed and I tried to answer that with the union scenario. I didn't make this up but gleaned it from reading an article written by NPR and it made a lot of sense with the ebb and tide of opinions toward teachers based on when the union was most vocal. In my view, teachers are paid very well in my area and I don't resent them making decent money but what I and many other parents don't like are the deadbeat teachers who scam the system and the system - because of the union or some other thing - will or can not fire them. This, I think puts mud on the faces of all the teachers. Then there is the football coach who makes $120,000 a year. Or the school superintendent's daughter who makes $60,000/year for working - or actually not working - one day a week while school was in session. That's pretty good pay if you ask me.

Now when I overthrow this regime and become dictator of JoMerika, I'll put these things in balance as I'd prefer to see math and chemistry teachers making the $120,000 and I'll leave the football coaching to any parents that want to volunteer for the job because from watching the stands most parents know more about coaching than the coach does anyway. I'll also make it illegal for schools - or any government entity for that matter - to allow nepotism - except Kentucky because I've gathered that would be impossible from reading BR's posts.
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Re: No tution college

Postby TexasBred » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:11 pm

Jogeephus wrote:
TexasBred wrote:Wait a few years and you may be treated by a doctor that is a doctor only because "daddy" wanted me to be a doctor. :shock: :shock:


Your optimism is refreshing and I hope you are right as I'll take that over one who identifies as a doctor or one who is a doctor because the college needs to meet some politically correct quota.


Yougottabeshittinme!!!!! What would we do without quotos?? ;-) :lol2:
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Re: No tution college

Postby TexasBred » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:20 pm

hurleyjd wrote:Paul Quinn college mentioned in the article was about bankrupt when a new dean took over. Did away with the sports program and saved millions a year. Plowed up the foot ball field and made it into a garden. Watched a program on PBS about this. Everyone that lives on campus and when coming for the nightly meal they have to be dressed for success. Mark Cuban buys all of the produce they produce for his maverick players kitchen. I think for the USA to survive in the world we are in now and the future we are going to have to make higher education a goal and one students can afford.

Paul Quinn was once an all black college and is still a majority black college. All they really did was cut down on all the theft and misapplication of funds going on among the administration as well as get rid of the jocks and made the school to where it could at least function. In 2017 6 out of 71 students graduated after 6 years of study and one graduated in 4 years.
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Re: No tution college

Postby herofan » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:12 pm

Jogeephus wrote:
herofan wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:
I agree that many still are and that respect is earned not given. I think the general perception of teachers vacillates with the involvement the teachers have with their union. When the union is upset and wanting more and teachers are doing better with their pay and benefits than the average person this just looks bad.


Personally, I think a teacher should make more than someone at an “average job.” Of course, I’m sure the definition of average could be an entirely different topic, but I see nothing wrong with teachers making more than the manager of McDonalds. I guess it shows priorities in the country.

I live in a rural area, so I don’t know opportunities in cities, but in my area, teachers make more than regular workers at fast food restaurants, department stores, and things like that. We don’t make more than the managers, major factories, or any other college graduates who have utilized their degree.


Your question was about why has the opinion of teachers changed and I tried to answer that with the union scenario. I didn't make this up but gleaned it from reading an article written by NPR and it made a lot of sense with the ebb and tide of opinions toward teachers based on when the union was most vocal. In my view, teachers are paid very well in my area and I don't resent them making decent money but what I and many other parents don't like are the deadbeat teachers who scam the system and the system - because of the union or some other thing - will or can not fire them. This, I think puts mud on the faces of all the teachers. Then there is the football coach who makes $120,000 a year. Or the school superintendent's daughter who makes $60,000/year for working - or actually not working - one day a week while school was in session. That's pretty good pay if you ask me.

Now when I overthrow this regime and become dictator of JoMerika, I'll put these things in balance as I'd prefer to see math and chemistry teachers making the $120,000 and I'll leave the football coaching to any parents that want to volunteer for the job because from watching the stands most parents know more about coaching than the coach does anyway. I'll also make it illegal for schools - or any government entity for that matter - to allow nepotism - except Kentucky because I've gathered that would be impossible from reading BR's posts.


I must say, if there is crap like that going on at the schools you are familiar with, then they should certainly be shown the door. I can't even relate to the negative things that people discuss about schools here. I've never taught anywhere besides the school I'm at, so t's normal to me, but apparently I should be truly thankful. People just couldn't get away with that kind of stuff where I'm from. The Superintendent would be run out of town on a rail.

I believe our coaches get paid $6,000 for Basketball and Football, and other sports are $2,000. A beginning teacher with a bachelor's degree starts around $35,000, and anyone who has taught 29plus years with the maximum education of a Rank I gets around $60,000. I don't suppose anyone will starve on that, but it isn't exactly "overpaid" by any means. Our local Pizza Hut manager makes in the $70s.

I don't understand the "union" thing either. I don't think the union has ever been involved in anything directly at our school. If a teacher truly is a deadbeat, there is nothing a union could do in our area. Teachers have "walk-throughs" and formal observations. I also believe a Principal gets some idea of what a teacher is like just by passing their classroom on a regular basis. There is no way a teacher could "not do their job" regularly at our school. They would be gone.

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Re: No tution college

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:58 pm

herofan wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:
Your question was about why has the opinion of teachers changed and I tried to answer that with the union scenario. I didn't make this up but gleaned it from reading an article written by NPR and it made a lot of sense with the ebb and tide of opinions toward teachers based on when the union was most vocal. In my view, teachers are paid very well in my area and I don't resent them making decent money but what I and many other parents don't like are the deadbeat teachers who scam the system and the system - because of the union or some other thing - will or can not fire them. This, I think puts mud on the faces of all the teachers. Then there is the football coach who makes $120,000 a year. Or the school superintendent's daughter who makes $60,000/year for working - or actually not working - one day a week while school was in session. That's pretty good pay if you ask me.

Now when I overthrow this regime and become dictator of JoMerika, I'll put these things in balance as I'd prefer to see math and chemistry teachers making the $120,000 and I'll leave the football coaching to any parents that want to volunteer for the job because from watching the stands most parents know more about coaching than the coach does anyway. I'll also make it illegal for schools - or any government entity for that matter - to allow nepotism - except Kentucky because I've gathered that would be impossible from reading BR's posts.


I must say, if there is crap like that going on at the schools you are familiar with, then they should certainly be shown the door. I can't even relate to the negative things that people discuss about schools here. I've never taught anywhere besides the school I'm at, so t's normal to me, but apparently I should be truly thankful. People just couldn't get away with that kind of stuff where I'm from. The Superintendent would be run out of town on a rail.

I believe our coaches get paid $6,000 for Basketball and Football, and other sports are $2,000. A beginning teacher with a bachelor's degree starts around $35,000, and anyone who has taught 29plus years with the maximum education of a Rank I gets around $60,000. I don't suppose anyone will starve on that, but it isn't exactly "overpaid" by any means. Our local Pizza Hut manager makes in the $70s.

I don't understand the "union" thing either. I don't think the union has ever been involved in anything directly at our school. If a teacher truly is a deadbeat, there is nothing a union could do in our area. Teachers have "walk-throughs" and formal observations. I also believe a Principal gets some idea of what a teacher is like just by passing their classroom on a regular basis. There is no way a teacher could "not do their job" regularly at our school. They would be gone.


I am pleased to hear your report on Kentucky schools. My son went to elementary, middle and high school in the State of Montana. The school system was an example of excellence.

Maybe Georgia needs to look to Kentucky as a model. Sounds like they have a nightmare of a mess down there.
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Re: No tution college

Postby herofan » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:17 pm

Bright Raven wrote:I am pleased to hear your report on Kentucky schools. My son went to elementary, middle and high school in the State of Montana. The school system was an example of excellence.

Maybe Georgia needs to look to Kentucky as a model. Sounds like they have a nightmare of a mess down there.


Apparently it is a mess in some other states. I remember we had a thread several months ago about teaching, and people were mentioning negative things that were foreign concepts to me. If schools can be like that, apparently the state education department allows it to happen. I’m not saying that every school in Ky is producing Harvard material, but if a school is considered low performing and does not improve after a given time here, the state can take it over and even shut it down. It’s been done.

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Re: No tution college

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:29 pm

herofan wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:I am pleased to hear your report on Kentucky schools. My son went to elementary, middle and high school in the State of Montana. The school system was an example of excellence.

Maybe Georgia needs to look to Kentucky as a model. Sounds like they have a nightmare of a mess down there.


Apparently it is a mess in some other states. I remember we had a thread several months ago about teaching, and people were mentioning negative things that were foreign concepts to me. If schools can be like that, apparently the state education department allows it to happen. I’m not saying that every school in Ky is producing Harvard material, but if a school is considered low performing and does not improve after a given time here, the state can take it over and even shut it down. It’s been done.


I don't hear any complaints here about our schools. Like you say, Kentucky does not lead the nation in many socioeconomic categories but the administration of the schools is held to a high standard. I do know Montana was outstanding.

You are correct, there are many posts that speak negatively of some other state school systems. Including poor performance by teachers, over paid faculty, run away sports programs. etc. IDK. Sad.
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Re: No tution college

Postby Jogeephus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:44 pm

The points about the union were made by NPR and while a union may not be active in your school on a local level they do voice their heads on occasion and what NPR was showing is when this happened it had a negative impact on people's view of teachers.

Here is something that sure wasn't good PR for teachers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... f637724e6a

As for our superintendent, she and her daughter were sent packing but the PR damage was done.

I don't want to sound like our schools are bad and I don't want to sound like all our teachers are bad because they are not. I have nothing but praise for most of my children's teachers but I can name two who should have been fired long before my children had to waste their time in their classes. Why they weren't is anyone's guess but all it takes are a few bad apples and this will make the whole bunch look bad.
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Re: No tution college

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:58 pm

Jogeephus wrote:
I don't want to sound like our schools are bad and I don't want to sound like all our teachers are bad because they are not. .......but all it takes are a few bad apples and this will make the whole bunch look bad.


Joe

That is extremely unfair. I believe it is true. But horribly unfair.

What vocation, profession, occupation, etc is exempt from having "a few bad apples"? Why in the world would any objective person hold teachers to an unrealistic standard that everyone among them has to be "perfect"?

There have always been a few bad teachers. There will always be a "few bad teachers".

I have a lot of people in my circle of friends who teach at every level. One was telling me just last night about a teacher's assistant being fired because she was constantly on her cell phone. My friend was sad but she said they are held to certain standards.

IDK. Seems we need to be fair.
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Re: No tution college

Postby Jogeephus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:13 pm

Ron, you are getting confused here. Herofan's question was why do people no longer look at teachers and blindly revere them. I think I have answered this. I'm not judging and I'm not condoning the unfairness of it all I'm just stating what people see.

Both of you say Kentucky seems to be as innocent as a lamb but a quick Google shows Kentucky schools have done their share of cheating on standardized tests. Do you believe this helped the image of teacher or hurt them? In my opinion, I believe it hurt their image and this is what the question was about.


https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/edu ... 57544.html
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Re: No tution college

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:41 pm

Jogeephus wrote:Ron, you are getting confused here. Herofan's question was why do people no longer look at teachers and blindly revere them. I think I have answered this. I'm not judging and I'm not condoning the unfairness of it all I'm just stating what people see.

Both of you say Kentucky seems to be as innocent as a lamb but a quick Google shows Kentucky schools have done their share of cheating on standardized tests. Do you believe this helped the image of teacher or hurt them? In my opinion, I believe it hurt their image and this is what the question was about.


https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/edu ... 57544.html


Herofan didn't mention innocence. He addressed your points about salaries and work standards. His post addressed the broader issues of school administration. Maybe I am guilty of getting us off track on the test scores. I apologize.
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Re: No tution college

Postby Jogeephus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:55 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:Ron, you are getting confused here. Herofan's question was why do people no longer look at teachers and blindly revere them. I think I have answered this. I'm not judging and I'm not condoning the unfairness of it all I'm just stating what people see.

Both of you say Kentucky seems to be as innocent as a lamb but a quick Google shows Kentucky schools have done their share of cheating on standardized tests. Do you believe this helped the image of teacher or hurt them? In my opinion, I believe it hurt their image and this is what the question was about.


https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/edu ... 57544.html


Herofan didn't mention innocence. He addressed your points about salaries and work standards. His post addressed the broader issues of school administration. Maybe I am guilty of getting us off track on the test scores. I apologize.


No problem. As for innocence, this is implied when you say that kind of stuff doesn't happen in Kentucky when a quick Google shows it does.

The question we need to be asking is, how can we fix these problems and make things better? Is it fair or right to pay a football coach twice the salary of a calculus or a chemistry teacher? Personally, I think not. This is but one of the things I see wrong with our system. Another big one is the thought that big schools are better for the students. All I see with big schools are students getting lost in the crowd.

And like I said, I have nothing but good to say about all but two of my children's teachers but I was also involved and made sure they got the best teachers except for the one time I couldn't get my son out of the drunk's class. I regret this.
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Re: No tution college

Postby herofan » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:57 pm

Jogeephus wrote:Ron, you are getting confused here. Herofan's question was why do people no longer look at teachers and blindly revere them. I think I have answered this. I'm not judging and I'm not condoning the unfairness of it all I'm just stating what people see.

Both of you say Kentucky seems to be as innocent as a lamb but a quick Google shows Kentucky schools have done their share of cheating on standardized tests. Do you believe this helped the image of teacher or hurt them? In my opinion, I believe it hurt their image and this is what the question was about.


https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/edu ... 57544.html


I didn’t mean to imply that all of Ky was innocent as a lamb; there is no way I could speak for all of them. I just know about the ones I’m familiar with.

I think you did explain why teachers have their current image by some. I do wonder, however, how certain images seem to stick. It’s like when someone goes berserk, people say they went “postal.” I’m sure postal work isn’t the only profession that has had some people go nuts, but somehow it stuck.

I do believe that a lot of people are quick to put down teachers without letting their mind focus on any real reasons. Everyone’s favorite is to pretend that teachers don’t do anything; it’s an easy job; there’s nothing to it, and their pay is way over the top. I wonder how many professions feel they are paid too much? I’m sure farmers frequently feel their cattle sold for too much. Oh, and let’s don’t forget that teachers get quite a bit of time off. I guess they should be put on a chain gang during the summer.

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Re: No tution college

Postby Jogeephus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:36 pm

I think many expect teachers to raise their children and educate them 100%. I never expected that of our teachers. I only expected them to help us educate our kids and in my opinion WE ALL did a good job and I am thankful for their help.

herofan wrote:I do believe that a lot of people are quick to put down teachers without letting their mind focus on any real reasons. Everyone’s favorite is to pretend that teachers don’t do anything; it’s an easy job; there’s nothing to it, and their pay is way over the top. I wonder how many professions feel they are paid too much? I’m sure farmers frequently feel their cattle sold for too much. Oh, and let’s don’t forget that teachers get quite a bit of time off. I guess they should be put on a chain gang during the summer.


I think there are a lot less people who think that way than you believe. I'd guess many are frustrated parents unwilling to take the ownership for their failure which is could be a result of their lack of involvement in their child's school activities.

But again, one bad apple hurts the whole bunch and this doesn't only apply to teachers but every profession. My frustration with my school system was not the teachers but the administration and their unwillingness to fix glaring problems - such as a drunk dope head teacher. As a parent, this was frustrating especially after he nearly killed my daughter driving drunk early one morning.
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