Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:06 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
There are plenty of publications on it but the reason people are skeptical is because there is no money in it like there is in the wormer business. I guess I will try and get a number for you too some Phd that has done research on it so you can pester him like you have this poor pouron salesman which led to you making a thread to help him sell more product.




There are publications that also show better weight gains particularly on feeders that are on a regular parasiticide protocol.


Im not disputing that. I've stated I worm calves They don't have the resistance cows do. What a feed lot does after they get my calves doesn't matter to and certain drenchs don't effect the Beetles. And there are publications on that too but they are not done by Wormer Salesman .


Darryl,

This may be hard for you to understand. I say that because you are a black/white type person. You seem to take everything as right or wrong. Imagine if you can, that some people have the capacity to absorb information and not judge it as right or wrong. They use it like you use a tool. You are a very crafty fellow. Very practical. But not everyone engages in a discussion to come out a Winner/loser. I enjoy these discussions.

You came on this thread from the very beginning with a chip on your shoulder. Looks like it is still there my very fine friend.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:28 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:


There are publications that also show better weight gains particularly on feeders that are on a regular parasiticide protocol.


Im not disputing that. I've stated I worm calves They don't have the resistance cows do. What a feed lot does after they get my calves doesn't matter to and certain drenchs don't effect the Beetles. And there are publications on that too but they are not done by Wormer Salesman .


Darryl,

This may be hard for you to understand. I say that because you are a black/white type person. You seem to take everything as right or wrong. Imagine if you can, that some people have the capacity to absorb information and not judge it as right or wrong. They use it like you use a tool. You are a very crafty fellow. Very practical. But not everyone engages in a discussion to come out a Winner/loser. I enjoy these discussions.

You came on this thread from the very beginning with a chip on your shoulder. Looks like it is still there my very fine friend.


Your right Ron, I'm not educated enough to be in this conversation. Next time put a disclaimer in the thread title you only want Yes men and People with Phd or MD in their name to respond.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:29 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Im not disputing that. I've stated I worm calves They don't have the resistance cows do. What a feed lot does after they get my calves doesn't matter to and certain drenchs don't effect the Beetles. And there are publications on that too but they are not done by Wormer Salesman .


Darryl,

This may be hard for you to understand. I say that because you are a black/white type person. You seem to take everything as right or wrong. Imagine if you can, that some people have the capacity to absorb information and not judge it as right or wrong. They use it like you use a tool. You are a very crafty fellow. Very practical. But not everyone engages in a discussion to come out a Winner/loser. I enjoy these discussions.

You came on this thread from the very beginning with a chip on your shoulder. Looks like it is still there my very fine friend.


Your right Ron, I'm not educated enough to be in this conversation. Next time put a disclaimer in the thread title you only want Yes men and People with Phd or MD in their name to respond.


Not what I meant and you know it. You got something stuck in your craw! All you need to do is spit it out.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:55 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
It is yeah, as in I read your post.


SO , Whats the verdict ?? Do I need to look up studies that show the same drugs you are using to kill parasites kill the beetles that kill the parasite you are trying to kill ??

Ive never said don't use wormer . I use it some but I try and find a balance and practice rotation that helps my operation and a healthy ecosystem is far more beneficial.


I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.

As I was sitting in tax lady's office this afternoon finding out what I owe. I was wondering exactly how long range wormer works if there is no residual in manure. Could you ask one of those high priced PhD folks you have on speed dial how it's possible. Perhaps it's divine intervention.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:06 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
SO , Whats the verdict ?? Do I need to look up studies that show the same drugs you are using to kill parasites kill the beetles that kill the parasite you are trying to kill ??

Ive never said don't use wormer . I use it some but I try and find a balance and practice rotation that helps my operation and a healthy ecosystem is far more beneficial.


I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.

As I was sitting in tax lady's office this afternoon finding out what I owe. I was wondering exactly how long range wormer works if there is no residual in manure. Could you ask one of those high priced PhD folks you have on speed dial how it's possible. Perhaps it's divine intervention.


Well, Devine intervention don't work where I live.

Yes, be glad to. BTW: according to Brent, Long Range is the only injectable preparation produced for Eprinomectin. Eprinomectin went off patent in January. So expect a bunch of generic pour ons but don't expect any injectables. Brent said that the carrier for an Eprinomectin injectable that they developed in long range is not likely to be duplicated any time soon.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.

As I was sitting in tax lady's office this afternoon finding out what I owe. I was wondering exactly how long range wormer works if there is no residual in manure. Could you ask one of those high priced PhD folks you have on speed dial how it's possible. Perhaps it's divine intervention.


Well, Devine intervention don't work where I live.

Yes, be glad to. BTW: according to Brent, Long Range is the only injectable preparation produced for Eprinomectin. Eprinomectin went off patent in January. So expect a bunch of generic pour ons but don't expect any injectables. Brent said that the carrier for an Eprinomectin injectable that they developed in long range is not likely to be duplicated any time soon.

That still doesn't answer the residual issue in manure seems likely that if these wormers work to reduce fly population that hatch in manure they would have adverse effects on the beetles that also use the manure. And since nature's defense mechanism is stopped it requires more wormer to keep cows healthy therefore increasing the need for more diverse products that the parasites are not resistant too which leads to more profit for the pharmacutical companies and less profit for farmers. Also I would like to know the transfer rate of pour ons when cattle lick and it enters the digestive tract and when laying down does the fresh pour on get transferred to to grass they are laying in .
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:25 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:As I was sitting in tax lady's office this afternoon finding out what I owe. I was wondering exactly how long range wormer works if there is no residual in manure. Could you ask one of those high priced PhD folks you have on speed dial how it's possible. Perhaps it's divine intervention.


Well, Devine intervention don't work where I live.

Yes, be glad to. BTW: according to Brent, Long Range is the only injectable preparation produced for Eprinomectin. Eprinomectin went off patent in January. So expect a bunch of generic pour ons but don't expect any injectables. Brent said that the carrier for an Eprinomectin injectable that they developed in long range is not likely to be duplicated any time soon.

That still doesn't answer the residual issue in manure seems likely that if these wormers work to reduce fly population that hatch in manure they would have adverse effects on the beetles that also use the manure. And since nature's defense mechanism is stopped it requires more wormer to keep cows healthy therefore increasing the need for more diverse products that the parasites are not resistant too which leads to more profit for the pharmacutical companies and less profit for farmers. Also I would like to know the transfer rate of pour ons when cattle lick and it enters the digestive tract and when laying down does the fresh pour on get transferred to to grass they are laying in .


Personally, I am skeptical of the amount of say Ivermectin that is excreted in feces. It's an interesting topic. I will call Dr. Falk if you are sincere. If you are only being sarcastic, then save me the effort, please.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:33 pm

I'm am serious . I know what I have seen by not mass worming. Surely I'm not an anomaly and enough science is available from agronomist to satisfy your skepticism , parasitologist are only one field and you can not blindly follow one without giving others a fair shake because everything works hand in hand . Would you trust your proctologist to do open heart surgery?
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:42 pm

M-5 wrote:I'm am serious . I know what I have seen by not mass worming. Surely I'm not an anomaly and enough science is available from agronomist to satisfy your skepticism , parasitologist are only one field and you can not blindly follow one without giving others a fair shake because everything works hand in hand . Would you trust your proctologist to do open heart surgery?


What have you seen? I see dung beetles over my entire farm and I do worm twice a year. There is no question that parasiticides affect most invertebrates but the levels must be miniscule. Nevertheless, I will open the subject with Dr. Falk. Be patient. He travels a lot. I also have some big projects this week and next. I got my wire from Luke on Friday. Hoping they start my fence if it ever stops raining.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby kenny thomas » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Another reason to use Cydentin, doesn't kill dung beetles
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:13 pm

kenny thomas wrote:Another reason to use Cydentin, doesn't kill dung beetles


Are you sure? Have you conducted a dung beetle population survey?
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby kenny thomas » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:02 pm

Oh yes, every year. I have 3 different sized ones. The big one that some find near here I have not found though.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dempster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:21 pm

Cydectin will affect dung beetles, just like the other avermectins, because they are, once again, passed in the manure. Cydectin is, however, less detrimental than other avermectins. I don't actually have a study at the ready to produce for every piece of knowledge I have, but if you pick up a bottle and read the label, I believe many of them have a dung beetle statement. Long Range's is something like "This product is excreted in the feces, similar to other avermectins. Product may affect pasture microorganisms" or something like that, I haven't read one in a while and don't have one in front of me.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby kenny thomas » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:59 pm

Dempster wrote:Cydectin will affect dung beetles, just like the other avermectins, because they are, once again, passed in the manure. Cydectin is, however, less detrimental than other avermectins. I don't actually have a study at the ready to produce for every piece of knowledge I have, but if you pick up a bottle and read the label, I believe many of them have a dung beetle statement. Long Range's is something like "This product is excreted in the feces, similar to other avermectins. Product may affect pasture microorganisms" or something like that, I haven't read one in a while and don't have one in front of me.

Ok, I stand corrected. Let me change my statement to being that I see more dung beetles since I swithched to Cydectin.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby kenny thomas » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:01 pm

kenny thomas wrote:
Dempster wrote:Cydectin will affect dung beetles, just like the other avermectins, because they are, once again, passed in the manure. Cydectin is, however, less detrimental than other avermectins. I don't actually have a study at the ready to produce for every piece of knowledge I have, but if you pick up a bottle and read the label, I believe many of them have a dung beetle statement. Long Range's is something like "This product is excreted in the feces, similar to other avermectins. Product may affect pasture microorganisms" or something like that, I haven't read one in a while and don't have one in front of me.

Ok, I stand corrected. Let me change my statement to being that I see more dung beetles since I swithched to Cydectin.

I also have read some opinions that commercial fertilizers hurt the dung beetle also.
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