Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

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Bright Raven
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:56 am

Dempster wrote:Cydectin will affect dung beetles, just like the other avermectins, because they are, once again, passed in the manure. Cydectin is, however, less detrimental than other avermectins. I don't actually have a study at the ready to produce for every piece of knowledge I have, but if you pick up a bottle and read the label, I believe many of them have a dung beetle statement. Long Range's is something like "This product is excreted in the feces, similar to other avermectins. Product may affect pasture microorganisms" or something like that, I haven't read one in a while and don't have one in front of me.


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From ERINEX a registered trademark of Merial, Inc. 1050-2355-07, Rev. 03-2015.

Studies indicate that when eprinomectin comes in contact with soil, it readily and tightly binds to the soil and becomes inactive over time. Free ivermectin/eprinomectin may adversely affect fish and certain aquatic organisms. Do not permit cattle to enter lakes, streams or ponds for at least 6 hours after treatment. Do not contaminate water by direct application or by the improper disposal of drug containers. Dispose of containers in an approved landfill or by incineration.

As with other avermectins, eprinomectin is excreted in the dung of treated animals and can inhibit the reproduction and growth of pest and beneficial insects that use dung as a source of food and for reproduction. The magnitude and duration of such effects are species and life-cycle specific. When used according to label directions, the product is not expected to have an adverse impact on populations of dung-dependent insects.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:15 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Dempster wrote:Cydectin will affect dung beetles, just like the other avermectins, because they are, once again, passed in the manure. Cydectin is, however, less detrimental than other avermectins. I don't actually have a study at the ready to produce for every piece of knowledge I have, but if you pick up a bottle and read the label, I believe many of them have a dung beetle statement. Long Range's is something like "This product is excreted in the feces, similar to other avermectins. Product may affect pasture microorganisms" or something like that, I haven't read one in a while and don't have one in front of me.


Thank you - a true Gentleperson and a Scholar.

From ERINEX a registered trademark of Merial, Inc. 1050-2355-07, Rev. 03-2015.

Studies indicate that when eprinomectin comes in contact with soil, it readily and tightly binds to the soil and becomes inactive over time. Free ivermectin/eprinomectin may adversely affect fish and certain aquatic organisms. Do not permit cattle to enter lakes, streams or ponds for at least 6 hours after treatment. Do not contaminate water by direct application or by the improper disposal of drug containers. Dispose of containers in an approved landfill or by incineration.

As with other avermectins, eprinomectin is excreted in the dung of treated animals and can inhibit the reproduction and growth of pest and beneficial insects that use dung as a source of food and for reproduction. The magnitude and duration of such effects are species and life-cycle specific. When used according to label directions, the product is not expected to have an adverse impact on populations of dung-dependent insects.

So Dempster validated what I said , but yet he is a gentleman and and a scholar . You just can't stand it if a person actually has some knowledge and learning from. Somewhere else besides the university.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:18 am

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Dempster wrote:Cydectin will affect dung beetles, just like the other avermectins, because they are, once again, passed in the manure. Cydectin is, however, less detrimental than other avermectins. I don't actually have a study at the ready to produce for every piece of knowledge I have, but if you pick up a bottle and read the label, I believe many of them have a dung beetle statement. Long Range's is something like "This product is excreted in the feces, similar to other avermectins. Product may affect pasture microorganisms" or something like that, I haven't read one in a while and don't have one in front of me.


Thank you - a true Gentleperson and a Scholar.

From ERINEX a registered trademark of Merial, Inc. 1050-2355-07, Rev. 03-2015.

Studies indicate that when eprinomectin comes in contact with soil, it readily and tightly binds to the soil and becomes inactive over time. Free ivermectin/eprinomectin may adversely affect fish and certain aquatic organisms. Do not permit cattle to enter lakes, streams or ponds for at least 6 hours after treatment. Do not contaminate water by direct application or by the improper disposal of drug containers. Dispose of containers in an approved landfill or by incineration.

As with other avermectins, eprinomectin is excreted in the dung of treated animals and can inhibit the reproduction and growth of pest and beneficial insects that use dung as a source of food and for reproduction. The magnitude and duration of such effects are species and life-cycle specific. When used according to label directions, the product is not expected to have an adverse impact on populations of dung-dependent insects.

So Dempster validated what I said , but yet he is a gentleman and and a scholar . You just can't stand it if a person actually has some knowledge and learning from. Somewhere else besides the university.


I disagree with that Darryl. I said I was skeptical. No where did I discredit you. I have numerous acquaintances who have virtually no formal education who demonstrate vast knowledge of a wide range of disciplines.

Edited to add: I remain skeptical that avermectins have any significant affect on invertebrate populations outside the body of the cow. Read that last statement on the Merial publication.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby True Grit Farms » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:36 am

Quit feeding trolls their idiots.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:36 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Quit feeding trolls their idiots.


I try not to but you are a very determined guy.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby TexasBred » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:56 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Quit feeding trolls their idiots.


I try not to but you are a very determined guy.


Amazing that some get their drawers in a knot just because a fella shows some semblance of intelligence and continues to seek answers to new questions that might come up. You gonna have to quit researching Ron.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:58 am

TexasBred wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Quit feeding trolls their idiots.


I try not to but you are a very determined guy.


Amazing that some get their drawers in a knot just because a fella shows some semblance of intelligence and continues to seek answers to new questions that might come up. You gonna have to quit researching Ron.


Thanks for that observation.

I don't take Grit serious. In regard to M-5, I think he is just messing with me on the dung debate. Dung does that.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby kenny thomas » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:48 am

So out of 11 pages have we proved the efficiency between pour on and injectable or if one brand is safer on dung than another? I'm not sure I'm convinced.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Caustic Burno » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:10 am

kenny thomas wrote:So out of 11 pages have we proved the efficiency between pour on and injectable or if one brand is safer on dung than another? I'm not sure I'm convinced.


No but a lot of cows have been wormed we think.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:25 am

kenny thomas wrote:So out of 11 pages have we proved the efficiency between pour on and injectable or if one brand is safer on dung than another? I'm not sure I'm convinced.


Kenny,

You will not find any 'proof'. You will get a lot of opinions. There is only one 'proof'. Both pour on and injectable meet the FDA FOI NADA requirements established by the FDA for the drugs to be approved for use.

Whether you hear it from veterinarians, toxicologist, pharmaceutical representatives, or parasitologist, etc. They all have their opinions and preferences. If you are looking for the 11th Commandment that sanctifies one over the other, it does not exist.

It all comes down to preference and opinion. Take consolation in the FACT that both meet the FDA efficacy requirements.

Regarding the dung debate - that is a lot about dung. This nation uses enough insecticide to make the limited effect of parasiticides on dung beetles an insignificant issue IMO.

PS: The point of this thread is captured in the title - DON'T DISMISS POUR ON PARASITICIDES. They give good results IF , IF ,IF they are applied properly and at the correct dose.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Putangitangi » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:24 pm

Do any of you ever do post-drench FECs? We do that from time to time to check how resistant our worm populations may have become to the drench we're using. Do a FEC, drench, then pick up dung samples ten days after drenching; if there are eggs there, your drench didn't work. Culture the eggs found to identify the species, if required.

Our Ag organisations have done a lot of work on educating farmers that the majority of the worm problem is on the pasture and you'll never eliminate them by treating the cattle. You just manage the production losses/health effects by how well you manage the animals, the pasture, how much you can feed them, etc. There are probably places where it gets cold enough to wipe them out there, not so many here and certainly never where I farm.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:26 pm

Putangitangi wrote:Do any of you ever do post-drench FECs? We do that from time to time to check how resistant our worm populations may have become to the drench we're using. Do a FEC, drench, then pick up dung samples ten days after drenching; if there are eggs there, your drench didn't work. Culture the eggs found to identify the species, if required.

Our Ag organisations have done a lot of work on educating farmers that the majority of the worm problem is on the pasture and you'll never eliminate them by treating the cattle. You just manage the production losses/health effects by how well you manage the animals, the pasture, how much you can feed them, etc. There are probably places where it gets cold enough to wipe them out there, not so many here and certainly never where I farm.


I am thinking about doing some fecal egg counts as a curiosity. As far as the life cycle of parasitic helminths, the deer population keeps some species going. Also, I have a neighbor with cattle upgradient of my farm. His egg load is certainly shared with me.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby wbvs58 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:30 pm

Putangitangi wrote:Do any of you ever do post-drench FECs? We do that from time to time to check how resistant our worm populations may have become to the drench we're using. Do a FEC, drench, then pick up dung samples ten days after drenching; if there are eggs there, your drench didn't work. Culture the eggs found to identify the species, if required.

Our Ag organisations have done a lot of work on educating farmers that the majority of the worm problem is on the pasture and you'll never eliminate them by treating the cattle. You just manage the production losses/health effects by how well you manage the animals, the pasture, how much you can feed them, etc. There are probably places where it gets cold enough to wipe them out there, not so many here and certainly never where I farm.


That is well said. I have only recently started to give my calves a strategic worming at 2-3 mths of age with Cydectin injectible to utilise the duration of the product to make sure that this group continues to go forward. My cows never get wormed, my pastures are well spelled. I just use product to make sure the group that is most vulnerable to parasites are not held back. I have done faecal egg counts and I know that this group of animals can carry a small burden of parasites. It is impossible to worm your herd to a worm free status and is not necessary. LuckyP has said on here many times previously that they don't see worm problems on autopsy other than the very young.

Ken
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby snoopdog » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:51 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
kenny thomas wrote:So out of 11 pages have we proved the efficiency between pour on and injectable or if one brand is safer on dung than another? I'm not sure I'm convinced.


No but a lot of cows have been wormed we think.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:12 am

wbvs58 wrote:I have only recently started to give my calves a strategic worming at 2-3 mths of age with Cydectin injectible to utilise the duration of the product to make sure that this group continues to go forward. My cows never get wormed, my pastures are well spelled. I just use product to make sure the group that is most vulnerable to parasites are not held back. I have done faecal egg counts and I know that this group of animals can carry a small burden of parasites. It is impossible to worm your herd to a worm free status and is not necessary. LuckyP has said on here many times previously that they don't see worm problems on autopsy other than the very young.

Ken


Ken.

The benefits of worming is a good discussion. Lucky_P has openly stated that having seen my cows and pasture, that I do not need to worm my adult cows.

I do but I suspect they would do well without it.

However, I think worming my calves keeps them coming along. I start worming them at about 6 weeks old. It is very simple since they are all halter broke. I use an oral drench (albendazole).

There are other factors.

First, to sell bred heifers and bulls here under the CAIP program, they have to be certified as wormed. Also, even without that requirement, it becomes a selling point to tell buyers that your bulls and heifers are wormed.

Lastly, I suspect commercial operators get a little more gain in their feeder calves if they are wormed. Whether it pays for itself, I don't know.

I will continue to worm my entire herd. Right now I have a total head count of 35. It only costs me about $150 a year to worm and treat for parasites. Fly control is more expensive. I use UltraBoss and it runs me about $275 a year to keep them treated for flys.
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