Pinkeye

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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Dave » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:39 pm

NEFarmwife wrote:
JMJ Farms wrote:Everyone who has cows should own a dart gun. Saves a lot of stress for man and beast alike.

As I was reading this thread, I thought to myself..."thank God for our dart gun". We just treated a calf yesterday for pinkeye, didn't even have to get out of our Ranger. Did go walk out and grab the dart once it fell out.


I agree, "Thank God for the dart gun". The squeeze is certainly nice when available. The other method is to rope and tie down the calf, or cow, or bull. I have done that enough times in my life. The dart gun is a whole lot easier on the cow, me, and the horse. I don't have to rile up the whole herd. I have a pump up rifle (Pnue). I have no problem hitting a cow or calf in the neck at 30 yards.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby JMJ Farms » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:55 pm

farmerjan wrote:I have not seen/heard that darts are reusable. We do not use it alot, the cows do get a little standoffish for a few days, but have never had to dart them more than once.


I'm not familar with all the different dart guns available. Mine is a CapChur brand. They offer reusable as well as disposable darts. The reusable ones cost more upfront but they will last indefinitely as long as you don't lose them. Both have their place.

Have a couple of calls a year where someone has went to the sale and bought a cow or yearling, took them home, dumped them in a pasture, and they never slowed down. Then they run them with four wheelers and trucks to the point they're bat shyt crazy. So they call and say "can you dart this cow for me?" If I'm trying to tranquilize I almost always use the disposable dart. If I use the reusable dart for tranquilizer I use a barbed needle that won't fall out. Have to take a razor and cut a small slit to get it out.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Dempster » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:34 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Dempster wrote:
Second, autogenous vaccines do not follow the same regulatory standards as commercial products. They can not be sold over the counter in quite the same way most vaccines are. Autogenous products are designed to be herd specific vaccines made for a particular herd group. There is a little paperwork that is supposed to be done by the vaccine producer when extending use of these products beyond the herd of origin into what are termed "non-adjacent herds." This is all just to say that a vet may require a previous relationship with a client prior to selling them a custom pinkeye vaccine. Some clinics may not, but there should probably be some type of relationship in place. It could potentially be a bigger issue if the product is being sold across state lines.


Dr. Darin Stanfield displays his Autogenous Pinkeye vaccine in the same "display case" with the commercial vaccines. There is no special requirements that I am aware of for purchase and most of the time, I purchase it when a clerk is behind the counter who doesn't know who I am. Perhaps they are not following the requirements. Furthermore, his Autogenous vaccine is not "herd specific". The vaccine is the culmination of 10 years of collecting eye swabs from every case of pinkeye that Darin has treated - per personal conversation with Darin.

He collects a swab of the eye infected with pinkeye and sends it to the lab for culture and inclusion in his "on going" Autogenous Pinkeye vaccine. He recommends it to all cattle producers that use his services.

He is going to be here Wednesday to perform a BSE on a bull, I will ask him if there are any special considerations for selling the autogenous vaccine and update this thread.


I'm sure the pinkeye product you use is not from a single specific herd, but that was more or less the original basis for designing autogenous products. They are intended to be made for a specific herd or group of livestock to control a disease that commercial are not adequately addressing. They are not intended to be large scale products use across many herds over a large area. Autogenous products do not undergo the testing and licensing process of commercial products and therefore are supposed to be of a much more limited scope. However, many pinkeye vaccines have pushed these boundaries, as have a number of other products. Because they are designed to be used in a specific herd, it is my understanding that veterinarians are supposed to justify their use of these products in herds that samples were not collected from. This is the additional paperwork required for these products. There may be some variability by state, but your vet is likely supposed to report which herds are receiving this vaccine, since it is not a commercial product. That's what is supposed to happen, that doesn't mean it always does. If you go to your clinic and no one know you, do they allow you to purchase prescription products like Draxxin or Nuflor?

I would be suprised if every pinkeye case a vet has seen over 10 years would be included in a vaccine. If you were to collect 20 samples a year for 10 years, you would end up with a 200 strain vaccine, which would sound impressive but is probably not realistic. We can very briefly go into the weeds regarding autogenous vaccine production, as I understand the process.

It is likely what happens is that you vet collects a pinkeye sample, sends it to the lab for culture, and possibly then has some of the samples evaluated genetically. You would first split the samples you have collected into the two primary Moraxella species: bovis and bovoculi. You would then compare the genetic profiles of all the bovis strains and all the bovoculi strains together and try to pick out some of the strains with the greatest variation, so that you get as much variability in your vaccine as possible without having to include 100 different samples. Additionally, there is minimal strain variation in bovis samples, so you really only need a couple of them and your bases would be covered. Bovoculi has a lot more genetic diversity so that is where you increase your number of strains in order to get a vaccine with greater coverage. Lastly, if you have taken good notes, you would review which cases were from herds that had been vaccinated the previous year and which had not been vaccinate,d and you would likely lean toward including strains from vaccinated herds, as those strains are more likely to be the ones the vaccine is not protecting against. There is also probably value in using strains from eyes that are early in the disease process, since you are more likely to find the bacteria that started the issue in those eyes. There probably isn't as much value in checking an ugly white eye that has been diseased for 3 weeks, whatever was originally causing it could be long gone by then.

After you have compared all your strains, you pick out the favorites and put them in the vaccine. Additionally, strains are supposed to expire a year or two after culture and no longer be used in the vaccine. After that, there are ways to have the lab send the strain back to you and then you can resubmit it, but if you are collecting enough samples you could probably cycle in new strains just as easy and have a slowly evolving vaccine with new strains entering and leaving every year and ultimately having roughly the same number of strains in the vaccine all the time.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:58 am

Dempster wrote:I'm sure the pinkeye product you use is not from a single specific herd, but that was more or less the original basis for designing autogenous products. They are intended to be made for a specific herd or group of livestock to control a disease that commercial are not adequately addressing. They are not intended to be large scale products use across many herds over a large area. Autogenous products do not undergo the testing and licensing process of commercial products and therefore are supposed to be of a much more limited scope. However, many pinkeye vaccines have pushed these boundaries, as have a number of other products. Because they are designed to be used in a specific herd, it is my understanding that veterinarians are supposed to justify their use of these products in herds that samples were not collected from. This is the additional paperwork required for these products. There may be some variability by state, but your vet is likely supposed to report which herds are receiving this vaccine, since it is not a commercial product. That's what is supposed to happen, that doesn't mean it always does. If you go to your clinic and no one know you, do they allow you to purchase prescription products like Draxxin or Nuflor?

I would be suprised if every pinkeye case a vet has seen over 10 years would be included in a vaccine. If you were to collect 20 samples a year for 10 years, you would end up with a 200 strain vaccine, which would sound impressive but is probably not realistic. We can very briefly go into the weeds regarding autogenous vaccine production, as I understand the process.

It is likely what happens is that you vet collects a pinkeye sample, sends it to the lab for culture, and possibly then has some of the samples evaluated genetically. You would first split the samples you have collected into the two primary Moraxella species: bovis and bovoculi. You would then compare the genetic profiles of all the bovis strains and all the bovoculi strains together and try to pick out some of the strains with the greatest variation, so that you get as much variability in your vaccine as possible without having to include 100 different samples. Additionally, there is minimal strain variation in bovis samples, so you really only need a couple of them and your bases would be covered. Bovoculi has a lot more genetic diversity so that is where you increase your number of strains in order to get a vaccine with greater coverage. Lastly, if you have taken good notes, you would review which cases were from herds that had been vaccinated the previous year and which had not been vaccinate,d and you would likely lean toward including strains from vaccinated herds, as those strains are more likely to be the ones the vaccine is not protecting against. There is also probably value in using strains from eyes that are early in the disease process, since you are more likely to find the bacteria that started the issue in those eyes. There probably isn't as much value in checking an ugly white eye that has been diseased for 3 weeks, whatever was originally causing it could be long gone by then.

After you have compared all your strains, you pick out the favorites and put them in the vaccine. Additionally, strains are supposed to expire a year or two after culture and no longer be used in the vaccine. After that, there are ways to have the lab send the strain back to you and then you can resubmit it, but if you are collecting enough samples you could probably cycle in new strains just as easy and have a slowly evolving vaccine with new strains entering and leaving every year and ultimately having roughly the same number of strains in the vaccine all the time.


Thanks for your response.

Dr. Darin Stanfield's autogenous vaccine is made annually. It includes strains of these two species:

Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi.

The last bottle I purchased states it was produced for Dr. Stanfield by Newport Laboratories, Washington, MN. I will ask him how many strains are currently covered by this year's Bacterin.

Dr Stanfield's customer services is performed by several ladies including on rare occasions, his wife. A couple of the staff know me or at least recognize me when I enter the office. Upon entering his premises, the items for sale are on display including a refrigerated display case for vaccines. I open the display case, set the vaccine on the counter, the customer service lady bills me and I depart. Done! I know that I have purchased it when the customer service lady did not know me.

On the one occasion that I purchased Draxxin, the lady who filled my order knew me.

PS: my guess is, anyone could walk in and buy it without a word.
Last edited by Bright Raven on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:13 am

Ron, if your ever in Eastman GA, please stop by and talk to our 2nd generation veterinarian on oak street using all those big words.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:21 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Ron, if your ever in Eastman GA, please stop by and talk to our 2nd generation veterinarian on oak street using all those big words.


Thanks Vince. I am an old generation NERD. When I was in high school - BTW: back when you actually got a good education if you wanted one - I took all the advanced courses. I had four years of math, General Biology and Advanced Biology, all the sciences, etc.

Then I spent 4 years on a BS and 2 years on a Masters. During my professional career, every assignment I worked at involved engineering, science and technical fields. There was no "shooting from the hip". You had to have your ducks lined up. The point is, you get into that mode, the habits and terminology become instinct.

Plus, I have always had a good memory. Both my parents were like that.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:26 am

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Ron, if your ever in Eastman GA, please stop by and talk to our 2nd generation veterinarian on oak street using all those big words.


Thanks Vince. I am an old generation NERD. When I was in high school - BTW: back when you actually got a good education if you wanted one - I took all the advanced courses. I had four years of math, General Biology and Advanced Biology, all the sciences, etc.

Then I spent 4 years on a BS and 2 years on a Masters. During my professional career, every assignment I worked at involved engineering, science and technical fields. There was no "shooting from the hip". You had to have your ducks lined up. The point is, you get into that mode and the habits and terminology become instinct.

Plus, I have always had a good memory. Both my parents were like that.

All that doesn't mean do do squat to Bob. I'm blessed I have CRS, makes it easy to sleep and shave.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:31 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Ron, if your ever in Eastman GA, please stop by and talk to our 2nd generation veterinarian on oak street using all those big words.


Thanks Vince. I am an old generation NERD. When I was in high school - BTW: back when you actually got a good education if you wanted one - I took all the advanced courses. I had four years of math, General Biology and Advanced Biology, all the sciences, etc.

Then I spent 4 years on a BS and 2 years on a Masters. During my professional career, every assignment I worked at involved engineering, science and technical fields. There was no "shooting from the hip". You had to have your ducks lined up. The point is, you get into that mode and the habits and terminology become instinct.

Plus, I have always had a good memory. Both my parents were like that.

All that doesn't mean do do squat to Bob. I'm blessed I have CRS, makes it easy to sleep and shave.


I have lost some of my short term memory. But long term is still good. When Dad was 92 just months before he died, he could tell you the name of every horse he owned since he got his first horse in 1920s - Ole Queen.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby NEFarmwife » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:27 am

Our dart gun is the .22 and has some amazing accuracy. We use the Pneu Darts and get ours from Stockmans Supply. Not sure what they price on their website but we can get them for just under $19 a set, delivered by a gentleman that makes his rounds in the area.

We shot another cow just yesterday and hubby said that the money we spent on this gun has been by far, the best investment we ever made. When you consider trying to treat them out in pasture, the number of people or resources you need to treat one sick cow/calf... it adds up!
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:50 am

Update:

1. The autogenous pinkeye bacterin Dr. Darin Stanfield offers customers includes isolates of these two species:

Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi.

2. The vaccine is made for Dr. Stanfield by Newport Laboratories, Washington, MN.

3. The vaccine is made from a new selection of strains of Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi on an annual basis.

4. Dr. Stanfield collects swabs from most cases of pinkeye that he treats on Monday - Thursday. Samples are not collected on Fridays because of issues keeping the sample viable over the weekend.

5. The lab cultures each swab and banks the culture. Each banked culture with some exceptions is discarded after 18 months.

6. The lab creates a phylogenetic tree for both species of Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi. They genotype each culture and determine where the strain resides on the tree.

7. Once a year, the lab screens the culture bank and selects 10 strains for the new batch of vaccine. Dr. Stanfield said there are usually 2 strains of Moraxella bovis and 8 strains of Moraxella bovoculi in each batch.

8. Dr Stanfield limits the strains to not more than a total of 10. For two reasons: a) cost. b) antigen reaction. Too many strains in one vaccine can result in too severe of an immunity reaction.

9. Dr Stanfield submits a notification to the state of Kentucky to justify his need for a custom vaccine.

10. The vaccine is intended for use in the area covered by his practice. There are no restrictions on purchase but he does not encourage any use outside his area.

Brad, I specifically ask about you using the vaccine in Indiana. He said he would not encourage you to do that.

Dr Stanfield said he believes his vaccine is superior to commercial vaccines which are more generic and do not include the local strains of Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi.

Edited to add: there are no laws or regulations limiting the sale. However, the intent of the justification for producing an autogenous pinkeye bacterin is to serve local needs of his practice.

Edit 2. Dr Stanfield said there are a couple strains that the lab has identified that cause a high percentage of the pinkeye in our area. Dr Stanfield has requested that a couple strains be carried forward in every new batch made annually.
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby bball » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:39 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Update:

1. The autogenous pinkeye bacterin Dr. Darin Stanfield offers customers includes isolates of these two species:

Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi.

2. The vaccine is made for Dr. Stanfield by Newport Laboratories, Washington, MN.

3. The vaccine is made from a new selection of strains of Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi on an annual basis.

4. Dr. Stanfield collects swabs from most cases of pinkeye that he treats on Monday - Thursday. Samples are not collected on Fridays because of issues keeping the sample viable over the weekend.

5. The lab cultures each swab and banks the culture. Each banked culture with some exceptions is discarded after 18 months.

6. The lab creates a phylogenetic tree for both species of Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi. They genotype each culture and determine where the strain resides on the tree.

7. Once a year, the lab screens the culture bank and selects 10 strains for the new batch of vaccine. Dr. Stanfield said there are usually 2 strains of Moraxella bovis and 8 strains of Moraxella bovoculi in each batch.

8. Dr Stanfield limits the strains to not more than a total of 10. For two reasons: a) cost. b) antigen reaction. Too many strains in one vaccine can result in too severe of an immunity reaction.

9. Dr Stanfield submits a notification to the state of Kentucky to justify his need for a custom vaccine.

10. The vaccine is intended for use in the area covered by his practice. There are no restrictions on purchase but he does not encourage any use outside his area.

Brad, I specifically ask about you using the vaccine in Indiana. He said he would not encourage you to do that.

Dr Stanfield said he believes his vaccine is superior to commercial vaccines which are more generic and do not include the local strains of Moraxella bovis and Moraxella bovoculi.

Edited to add: there are no laws or regulations limiting the sale. However, the intent of the justification for producing an autogenous pinkeye bacterin is to serve local needs of his practice.

Edit 2. Dr Stanfield said there are a couple strains that the lab has identified that cause a high percentage of the pinkeye in our area. Dr Stanfield has requested that a couple strains be carried forward in every new batch made annually.


Ron,
Thank you so much for your efforts. Very useful information.
Did he elaborate on the range covered by 'local`? Or happen to be aware of anyone in Indiana that is producing an autogenous vac?
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby bball » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:46 pm

:oops: Auto corrected autogenous for erogenous :lol2:
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Re: Pinkeye

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:12 pm

bball wrote::oops: Auto corrected autogenous for erogenous :lol2:



:mrgreen:

Brad, he said that other veterinarians are using autogenous vaccines especially for pinkeye since Moraxella comes in many strains. More so in the Moraxella bovoculi species. He suggested that you check around, ask your vet, and he was confident that you would find an autogenous vaccine more appropriate for your area.

Edited to add: regarding range of his autogenous vaccine. I gathered that it is probably more effective than any commercial vaccine because the autogenous vaccine includes more that just a couple strains. His reservations on a broader use of his vaccine is based on the spirit of the justification which states it is for local use.
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