Bull with stifle injury

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Ebenezer
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:24 am

Stocker Steve wrote:
Boot Jack Bulls wrote:I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.


What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?
Shorter life and more joint issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault)

Not 100% true if there is a known genetic defect.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby TCRanch » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:32 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
Boot Jack Bulls wrote:I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.


What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?
Shorter life and more joint issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault)

Not 100% true if there is a known genetic defect.


There's a genetic defect that predisposes a bull to break his penis? I didn't witness the actual event but both bulls were yearlings, a lot of head-butting/fighting and my girls are pretty big - just assumed it was an injury accident.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:43 am

TCRanch wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?
Shorter life and more joint issues.

To the breeder's credit, he was under no obligation to compensate us for the bull with the broken penis (certainly wasn't his fault)

Not 100% true if there is a known genetic defect.


There's a genetic defect that predisposes a bull to break his penis? I didn't witness the actual event but both bulls were yearlings, a lot of head-butting/fighting and my girls are pretty big - just assumed it was an injury accident.

Search "premature spiral deviation".
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Lucky_P » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:05 am

While some here will point to a bull they had that bred well into his teens - and I kept one, recently, 'til he came up empty at about 10... most bulls, barring injury or other mishap, begin to have serious decline in fertility by around 7 years of age, as shown by extensive studies by theriogenologists.

Back in the day (30+ yrs ago), we used to fashion big ol' Thomas splint type apparatuses out of electrical conduit for these stifled bulls and stick them in a stall. Probably the very worst thing we could have done. No rehab, and imagine the muscle atrophy if you were in a splint and stalled for months. Better to kick 'em out in that small lot and make them exercise... some will come back to service, even if limited in scope, but some.. not.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Chocolate Cow2 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:51 am

Stocker Steve wrote:
Boot Jack Bulls wrote:I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.


What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?


Fertility is the first issue and it's a proven issue. Over conditioning lays fat in the scrotum so the bull can't regulate the temperature of the testes. Next would be foot issues which might not show initially and joint problems. Another issue would be complete disappointment with the bulls calves because you surely would expect amazing calves from this amazing bull but you didn't or can't replicate the environment he was raised (fed) in so his offspring would not meet your expectations. Gotta love those inflated EPD's.

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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby 76 Bar » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:18 am

Search "premature spiral deviation".

Speaking of fertility, had one years ago and embarrassed to admit I failed to detect it in a timely manner. Cost me a set of very nice young cows. Lesson learned.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Stocker Steve » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:36 am

Chocolate Cow2 wrote:Next would be foot issues which might not show initially and joint problems.

Ask me how I know


Understand the bull fertility and EPD issues, but how does a hot ration effect the joint development of a young bull?
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Lazy M » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:41 pm

TCRanch wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
TCRanch wrote:I'm commercial, haven't had the best luck and 6 years is the longest I've ever kept a bull:
Stud Muffin broke his, um, "muffin" - had him a whopping 9 weeks. Replaced him with Not Bob (not to be confused with Bob the Viagra Guy) & he had warts on his, um, "muffin". Vet cut them off twice but ended up selling him after 3 months of treatment (the vet bills & check went to the breeder, who replaced him the next year free of charge). MoLester lasted 2 years but was a jumper. Had Peter 1 year before he charged my husband. Buh bye! Chester & aforementioned Bob both made it 6 years before I needed to replace them. I've had Dick 5 years and contingent on his BSE will keep him at least another year. Johnson & Rod are only 3, bought them as yearlings & looks like Rod's on his way out.

You need some better luck, I assume you buy bulls from different breeders?

Actually only from 2 different breeders. The breeder that sold us the bull that broke his penis was completely honest that the only heifer bull left had warts & if our vet couldn't eliminate the problem he'd make good on it the following year, which he did. Bought the jumper from him but I don't think that's a reflection on the breeder. Also bought the one that charged my husband from him. Breeder said he'd give us a discount on a replacement but we ended up selling that bull to a large operation in OK. They were fully aware of his attitude problem but they do everything on horseback, didn't care. That bull even charged the horses so they ended up working him with dogs and still have him. Waited until the following year to buy a replacement (ended up with 2) and they were from a local breeder that had been in business 40 years. Naturally he retired the following year. So possibly back to the first breeder but researching my options. Bob & Dick were from the 1st breeder & I couldn't be happier with them, awesome bulls.

Was looking thru a breeders stock one time and he showed me quite possibly the nicest Angus yearling bull that I've ever seen. As we walked up to him the bull lowered and shook his head and began to lunge at us. The breeder slapped his nose with his hat and the bull walked off. The breeder said the bull was aways like that.. Said he was just playing, and if you slapped him with your hat he'd quit. I asked what if I wasn't wearing a hat. The breeder thought for a second and said, "well in that case, I guess your screwed".. I took a pass on that bull
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Boot Jack Bulls wrote:I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.


What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?


One of the biggest issues I have run into is bulls being pushed on DDG. I know I'm gonna catch some flack for this, but I do not and will not ever again feed my cattle DDG. In my experience, it runs there ability to convert forage. Before anyone jumps me, No I do not have any studies or research to back this up. Just years of pushing show steers and young bulls for fast gain and quick development. I have found that they do well on DDG for so long, then can't survive on pasture or just good hay through the winter. I also avoid ones pushed on corn. As others have pointed out, it causes fat deposits in the most unhelpful of places! I have not seen the stress on joints and feet others mentioned with pushing young stock, but I also haven't kept any of the ones I bought that had been pushed around long enough to really find out. In most of these cases, they weed themselves out the first winter.

I currently have 5 yearling (just yearling) bulls in development. They are all paternal brothers. One is red Angus X black Angus, one is a black Limflex and 3 are red Limflex. They are all slightly different in there phenotype and performance (100% intended). They were pulled of the cows a touch late (we had a massive snow storm in the middle of April and I fed the last hay on June 1!). They we put on a custom developer ration through the summer, and are now on pasture with about 5 pounds of cracked corn per head bucket fed daily (they are each about 1000 pounds). They will be one good hay through the winter, and corn supplement as necessary to maintain about a 6 BCS. Come spring (and a minimum of 60 days before BSEs are done), they will get no more feed for the rest of their days. At that point, if they can't make it on good hay/ pasture, they do not stay in my program! This has worked for me for several years now, to ensure our Limousin and Angus bulls grow well, but also have some longevity.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Chocolate Cow2 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:44 pm

You could possibly expect lameness caused by osteochondrosis. https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... chondrosis

Another problem I forgot to mention is liver abscesses from acidosis..from too much grain.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Stocker Steve » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:19 pm

What is in your custom mixed development ration if you will not feed them DDG or corn?
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Lazy M » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:33 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
Boot Jack Bulls wrote:I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.


What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?


One of the biggest issues I have run into is bulls being pushed on DDG. I know I'm gonna catch some flack for this, but I do not and will not ever again feed my cattle DDG. In my experience, it runs there ability to convert forage. Before anyone jumps me, No I do not have any studies or research to back this up. Just years of pushing show steers and young bulls for fast gain and quick development. I have found that they do well on DDG for so long, then can't survive on pasture or just good hay through the winter. I also avoid ones pushed on corn. As others have pointed out, it causes fat deposits in the most unhelpful of places! I have not seen the stress on joints and feet others mentioned with pushing young stock, but I also haven't kept any of the ones I bought that had been pushed around long enough to really find out. In most of these cases, they weed themselves out the first winter.

I currently have 5 yearling (just yearling) bulls in development. They are all paternal brothers. One is red Angus X black Angus, one is a black Limflex and 3 are red Limflex. They are all slightly different in there phenotype and performance (100% intended). They were pulled of the cows a touch late (we had a massive snow storm in the middle of April and I fed the last hay on June 1!). They we put on a custom developer ration through the summer, and are now on pasture with about 5 pounds of cracked corn per head bucket fed daily (they are each about 1000 pounds). They will be one good hay through the winter, and corn supplement as necessary to maintain about a 6 BCS. Come spring (and a minimum of 60 days before BSEs are done), they will get no more feed for the rest of their days. At that point, if they can't make it on good hay/ pasture, they do not stay in my program! This has worked for me for several years now, to ensure our Limousin and Angus bulls grow well, but also have some longevity.

I'd love to see pics of these bulls. I have 2 from last fall that I've been developing similarly. I do feed the mature bulls around 5 lbs/hd feed during their off season. Not enough to get them fat but enough to keep them in real good condition and ready to work at turn out.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:56 pm

StockerSteve, I never said they don't get grain as youngsters, quite the opposite in fact. My developer ration is grain based. No DDG in it. It is relatively low fat, and modest in protein. They are then put on supplemental corn until they have good grass at 1 to 1 1/2 years old (depending if they are fall or spring born). Because of limited availability of grazing forage, they must get some grain to grow at all. I want them to reach potential, without ruining them. I just sent out a 2 1/2 year old bull on his 2nd herd of this summer. He has been working for his supper and crossed the scale at 2052 and in great shape.

Lazy M, I will try to find some. They are just getting brought in to clip and be broke to lead the last couple of days.
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:06 pm

Image
Lazy M, here's what I had handy on my phone. These are from about a month, month and a half ago. I wish I had more/ better pictures, I think they are a neat group. *Note, the bull in the foreground in second picture is 8 1/2, not one of the yearlings!
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Re: Bull with stifle injury

Postby Lazy M » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:46 am

They look good. Thanks for posting
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