Udder Topic

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Bright Raven
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:30 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:Yes Ron, nice looking udders but how do they actually perform? You subsidise their performance by creep feeding and early weaning.

Ken


They perform well under the demands of my system. If I kept the calves on longer, it would put more stress on the udder.
how will you ever find out if their udder will stand up under stress? I've had cows into their Mid 20s that their udders look like heifers...


How will I find out if my cow's udders will hold up "under stress"? That implys that the udders of my cows do not have any "stress". I don't think Ken is implying that they have "no stress". His implication is that they are not tested to the extent that they might be under conditions where I leave the calf on the cow longer.

Maybe we need to reset. I wean my calves at six months of age. I have a simple philosophy: a 600 to 700 pound calf does not need mommy's milk. In regard to creep feeding: I halter break all my calves. I set feed troughs up in an area separated from the cows so the calves will come into an area where they can be trapped and moved to the halter area. Perhaps my cows udders are not "tested" to the maximum under those management practices.

What is perhaps more important is that I have FAITH, Not in a spiritual sense but in the men who spent their careers in the breeding of the cows that stand in my pastures. And in the breeders of the bulls I use in my program. I have faith in the pedigrees and bloodlines of the cattle accumulated from Rocking P Livestock, Maple Leaf Farm (Roy Canada), Double Diamond Farms and Fire Sweep Simmentals. The original nucleus of my herd was started with cattle off the Rocking P farm. Their genetics run through 65 % of my herd.

Finally, your question can be asked of every heifer that every producer retains. How will that heifer's udder hold up? How will her udder be 20 years down the road? As producers who retain heifers, all we can do is have faith in the bloodline that produced that heifer.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Supa Dexta » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:54 pm

Nesikep wrote:Speaking of, brings up the Jim Lentz video I saw on linebreeding...


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Re: Udder Topic

Postby ALACOWMAN » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:17 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
They perform well under the demands of my system. If I kept the calves on longer, it would put more stress on the udder.
how will you ever find out if their udder will stand up under stress? I've had cows into their Mid 20s that their udders look like heifers...


How will I find out if my cow's udders will hold up "under stress"? That implys that the udders of my cows do not have any "stress". .....my reply was to what was originally said.. creep feeding and ". early weaning"" ..weaning at six to seven months..is not early weaning...
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby ALACOWMAN » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:19 pm

Supa Dexta wrote:
Nesikep wrote:Speaking of, brings up the Jim Lentz video I saw on linebreeding...


Grind the works of them. Hereford - the race to the bottom.
hope not, I got a line one bull in the pasture... :cowboy:
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:45 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:how will you ever find out if their udder will stand up under stress? I've had cows into their Mid 20s that their udders look like heifers...


How will I find out if my cow's udders will hold up "under stress"? That implys that the udders of my cows do not have any "stress". .....my reply was to what was originally said.. creep feeding and ". early weaning"" ..weaning at six to seven months..is not early weaning...


Ken may not know that I don't wean early by most standards. I think seven months is standard.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Nesikep » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:05 pm

holm25 wrote:Nesi this is the udder on a heifer we kept from that red cow. She’s a smaller heifer with a smaller bag but she must make ALOT of milk as she is doing good her first year. I imagine her bag will be bigger and so will her tests come next calving but if it stays as nice and uniform as it is it should be good.. I found heifers usually have smaller bags their first year and then come second year they have bags that are noticeably bigger?

Yeah, their bags will get bigger with age.. if they're good, at some point they'll stop getting bigger though. The bad ones just keep ballooning.
I don't find how long the calf is on the cow to be the determining factor to the udders breaking down.. it's genetic and heavy milking cows are particularly prone to it.. I think the damage happens the week before to a couple weeks after calving.. when she just comes into milk full steam and the calf can't keep up with it
Kinda like this old bag..


Cow I pictured earlier looked like a heifer when she wasn't in milk until she was about 5-6 years old
About 6 I think.. a month? after calving
Image

Little udder made a whopper calf
Image

Dried up that fall
Image

10 years old, a couple days after calving
Image

I think in many cases it's not always the volume of milk that makes a big calf but the content of the milk too.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby ALACOWMAN » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:26 pm

The suspensory ligaments in that first cows udder,are hollerin uncle...
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby wbvs58 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:30 pm

Ron, I find that how an udder looks has little correlation to how good a calf a cow weans and after all the milk EPD is calculated from the weaning weight of the calf. Some cows with relatively small udders will wean a big calf and some with a big udder will wean a small calf and all points in between. The eye appeal of udders is more to look for the likes of bottle teats and suspension problems though most of those will only show up before and soon after calving, once in production and getting sucked down they can look like the perfect udder.

As to weaning rates Ron, we tend to calve mid winter (July) and then make the full use of our growing season of spring/summer and then wean at the end of March at 8-9mths so make full use of a lactation.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:37 pm

wbvs58 wrote:Ron, I find that how an udder looks has little correlation to how good a calf a cow weans and after all the milk EPD is calculated from the weaning weight of the calf. Some cows with relatively small udders will wean a big calf and some with a big udder will wean a small calf and all points in between. The eye appeal of udders is more to look for the likes of bottle teats and suspension problems though most of those will only show up before and soon after calving, once in production and getting sucked down they can look like the perfect udder.

As to weaning rates Ron, we tend to calve mid winter (July) and then make the full use of our growing season of spring/summer and then wean at the end of March at 8-9mths so make full use of a lactation.


Ken, good points. I agree. Everyone loves those pretty udders but being functional is what matters most.

I remember you saying previously that you wean at 8 to 9 months. I wean right at 6 1/2 to 7 months.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby T & B farms » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:47 pm

In my calving book, I have dedicated a space to write down “dams udder at birth” I mark them 1-5 with 5 being a perfect udder and teats. If I write down the cow having a 1, she is on the cull list after she weans her calf. Also I will not retain any heifers out of anything with a 1 or 2. No exceptions. This makes picking out my 15-20 replacement heifers for the year easier. I have saw a steady increase in my udder quality as a whole. I have been rapidly expanding, so I have several cows with what I concider unexceptable teat size. But their calves haven’t had an issue getting ahold, and they raise a dandy of a calf. So they are getting to stay around a few extra years until I have replacements for them.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Nesikep » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:45 pm

wbvs58 wrote:Ron, I find that how an udder looks has little correlation to how good a calf a cow weans and after all the milk EPD is calculated from the weaning weight of the calf. Some cows with relatively small udders will wean a big calf and some with a big udder will wean a small calf and all points in between. The eye appeal of udders is more to look for the likes of bottle teats and suspension problems though most of those will only show up before and soon after calving, once in production and getting sucked down they can look like the perfect udder.

As to weaning rates Ron, we tend to calve mid winter (July) and then make the full use of our growing season of spring/summer and then wean at the end of March at 8-9mths so make full use of a lactation.

I'd go a step further and say udder SIZE doesn't dictate how good a calf they can raise

I'm weaning this weekend.. oldest calf is 219, youngest is 164... I weaned the calves from the first timers (that are sticking around) a month ago, they already regained at least once BCS point which is good.. both put a lot into the calves and raised them well

Here's 3 daughters and a granddaughter from the cow pictured above

Oldest daughter, 7 years old, raised 2 calves this year
Image

6 year old, her calves aren't quite as big but they're really stocky and meaty (who'da thunk it from her)
Image

2 year old, calf weaned a month ago.. he's somewhere in the 500's.. not bad for a small cow
Image

Oldest daughter's daughter, also raised a 500something steer
Image
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Stocker Steve » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:02 am

Nice cow family
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:21 am

Nesikep wrote:
holm25 wrote:Nesi this is the udder on a heifer we kept from that red cow. She’s a smaller heifer with a smaller bag but she must make ALOT of milk as she is doing good her first year. I imagine her bag will be bigger and so will her tests come next calving but if it stays as nice and uniform as it is it should be good.. I found heifers usually have smaller bags their first year and then come second year they have bags that are noticeably bigger?

Yeah, their bags will get bigger with age.. if they're good, at some point they'll stop getting bigger though. The bad ones just keep ballooning.
I don't find how long the calf is on the cow to be the determining factor to the udders breaking down.. it's genetic and heavy milking cows are particularly prone to it.. I think the damage happens the week before to a couple weeks after calving.. when she just comes into milk full steam and the calf can't keep up with it
Kinda like this old bag..


Cow I pictured earlier looked like a heifer when she wasn't in milk until she was about 5-6 years old
About 6 I think.. a month? after calving
Image

Little udder made a whopper calf
Image

Dried up that fall
Image

10 years old, a couple days after calving
Image

I think in many cases it's not always the volume of milk that makes a big calf but the content of the milk too.

I have never had a cow with half the udder of that first one. Holy moly that's a lot of milk. The one with the dried up udder looks perfect to me, if she had a calf on her. My forage and management can't support heavy milkers. My guess is your ADG is at least one pound more than mine.
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:51 am

Here is a ten year old cow that still has a good udder. She just had a calf yesterday and he already has her nursed.

Image
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Re: Udder Topic

Postby Ebenezer » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:59 am

Calve in the natural flush and you will know about the udder ASAP.
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