Worming and resistance issues.

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Worming and resistance issues.

Post by True Grit Farms » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:09 am

I'm done worming our cattle on an as needed basis. We've had some worm issues since we quit worming everything twice a year. So now we'll just get back on the twice yearly worm protocol and go down with the ship like the rest of the cattlemen I suppose. The UGA worm and parasites studies of only treating calves and the cows that look like they need to be wormed isn't working for us. The results we're seeing in the real world don't seem to be the same.


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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:27 am

You would think that drug companies are on the cusp of bringing out a new family of parasiticides - the current family of parasiticides (the ivermectin family) is getting long in the tooth (ivermectin was discovered in 1975). I know a couple guys who are leaders in major drug companies, surprisingly, there is not as much going on as I would have expected. It was explained to me that the research is extremely expensive and they are riding out the current family of parasiticides as long as they can. It was further explained that pure research companies will most likely discover the next great family of parasiticides and then sell the rights to the new parasiticide for millions to one of the big drug producers.

It will happen. There must be a million ways to throw a wrench into the physiology of an invertebrate - but it requires a lot of research.

I think you are wise to go back to annual or semiannual treatment. You are not going to accomplish anything standing alone as one holdout.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:08 am

Vince, here is the problem with discovering, getting a drug ready for approval and putting it on the market.

I have talked to Dr. Steve Falk at Merial which is owned by Boehringer Ingelheim.

A parasiticide has to be able to kill a broad range of parasitic invertebrates. It has to do that without adversely affecting the host (cow in this case). It has to reside in the system long enough to provide protection over time.

Then there is the process of getting the drug ready for USDA approval. Not unlike the process for FDA approval.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. The process is daunting. My son works for Eli Lilly and is the International editor for clinical trials and edits the submissions that go to the FDA for drug approval. The process is beyond your imagination. He tells me it takes years to recover the cost to get a drug on the market.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:30 am

One more point:

You know all those "side effects" and disclaimers that are listed for every drug that comes out for human use? My son, whose job it is to edit those drug brochures, tells me 99 % of those disclaimers are not based on any evidence of occurring. They are listed to protect the drug company from damage claims. They would rather error on the side of caution than risk a damage claim that would wipe out the company. If you remember the "Big Tobacco" settle, then you know why drug companies are scared to death of damage claims.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by ddd75 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:49 am

i've never wormed a mature cow.

if a mature cow has worms and can't balance them on her own.. she has no place here.

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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Redgully » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:13 am

My brother was involved in trialing a new fruit fly chemical. The chemical company bought a row of fruit trees on his place and sprayed it for three years at different rates and did test after test. Must have cost a fortune. The guy was telling him they did the tests on stonefruit to get it registered. He said just to add another type of fruit would cost around $100 000 each time. They will add them over the years defending on the success of the chemical. I wanted to set up a planting of jujubes, but as the industry is so small not one company will put jujubes on their labels due to the cost of testing, which then makes it illegal to use. Similar to worming is mite sprays. They become resistant so fast the companies are reluctant to put work into new ones. This is where you need to look into alternatives. With mites it is predatory mites. With worming you can do egg counting or take samples to someone who does it. Only worm when egg numbers are high. Most people waist money worming when it is not needed at all. Learn the life cycle and rotate your paddocks, keep your copper levels sustained and do egg counting and you will be surprised how little worming you actually need to do.

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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by True Grit Farms » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:18 am

ddd75 wrote:i've never wormed a mature cow.

if a mature cow has worms and can't balance them on her own.. she has no place here.

I wish you better luck than what we've had. We used a white paste and an injectable at the same time and only wormed calves from that time forward. I was hoping to add culling on parasite load to our program but that's not going to happen.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by True Grit Farms » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:24 am

Redgully wrote:My brother was involved in trialing a new fruit fly chemical. The chemical company bought a row of fruit trees on his place and sprayed it for three years at different rates and did test after test. Must have cost a fortune. The guy was telling him they did the tests on stonefruit to get it registered. He said just to add another type of fruit would cost around $100 000 each time. They will add them over the years defending on the success of the chemical. I wanted to set up a planting of jujubes, but as the industry is so small not one company will put jujubes on their labels due to the cost of testing, which then makes it illegal to use. Similar to worming is mite sprays. They become resistant so fast the companies are reluctant to put work into new ones. This is where you need to look into alternatives. With mites it is predatory mites. With worming you can do egg counting or take samples to someone who does it. Only worm when egg numbers are high. Most people waist money worming when it is not needed at all. Learn the life cycle and rotate your paddocks, keep your copper levels sustained and do egg counting and you will be surprised how little worming you actually need to do.

Our water sources might have something to do with our recent problems. We water out of ponds mostly and we're in a drought so you know how that went. Now we're at flood stage and the cows would rather drink from the nasty water holes than the ponds. But the fact remains when we were worming everything twice a year we didn't see any parasite related issues. I don't mind trying new stuff but I'm done with this experiment.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Redgully » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:40 am

I here ya, we did the whole trapping baiting monitoring thing in the orchard with fruit fly when they banned our main two chemicals. We had some good and some bad results.....then the industry found a beetle chemical annihilates fruitfly so no more being a nice guy, we just go nuke em now!!

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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by True Grit Farms » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:46 am

Redgully wrote:I here ya, we did the whole trapping baiting monitoring thing in the orchard with fruit fly when they banned our main two chemicals. We had some good and some bad results.....then the industry found a beetle chemical annihilates fruitfly so no more being a nice guy, we just go nuke em now!!

Now all you have to worry about is the side effects.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Redgully » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:58 am

Yeah it kills all the good bugs that eat mites and then they become a problem! Vicious little circle!

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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by sstterry » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:17 am

Bright Raven wrote:One more point:

You know all those "side effects" and disclaimers that are listed for every drug that comes out for human use? My son, whose job it is to edit those drug brochures, tells me 99 % of those disclaimers are not based on any evidence of occurring. They are listed to protect the drug company from damage claims. They would rather error on the side of caution than risk a damage claim that would wipe out the company. If you remember the "Big Tobacco" settle, then you know why drug companies are scared to death of damage claims.

As well they should be. This is the result of years and years of hiding things from the public in the name of profits.

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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Lucky » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:19 am

What’s the issue with worming twice a year with the current drugs available? Is is cost or do y’all think they are just not effective? I’ve always wormed twice a year and never had any problems. Every now and then I’ll notice one looking wormy and give her another dose but not very often. I try to use different wormers from year to year but they all pretty much have the same effective ingredient so not sure it helps anything. What about Long Range, isn’t it the latest?

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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:29 am

Lucky wrote:1. What’s the issue with worming twice a year with the current drugs available? Is is cost or do y’all think they are just not effective?

2. I’ve always wormed twice a year and never had any problems. Every now and then I’ll notice one looking wormy and give her another dose but not very often. I try to use different wormers from year to year but they all pretty much have the same effective ingredient so not sure it helps anything.

3.What about Long Range, isn’t it the latest?


1. Nothing is wrong with it. Parasiticides are effective.

2. It is a good idea to "mix it up".

3. Long range is eprinomectin (ivermectin family) with an enhanced carrier. Thus, it stays in the system longer but make no mistake - it is simply eprinomectin with a carrier owned by Boehringer Ingelheim that makes it different.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:32 am

sstterry wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:One more point:

You know all those "side effects" and disclaimers that are listed for every drug that comes out for human use? My son, whose job it is to edit those drug brochures, tells me 99 % of those disclaimers are not based on any evidence of occurring. They are listed to protect the drug company from damage claims. They would rather error on the side of caution than risk a damage claim that would wipe out the company. If you remember the "Big Tobacco" settle, then you know why drug companies are scared to death of damage claims.

As well they should be. This is the result of years and years of hiding things from the public in the name of profits.


Lol. I love drug companies. Now my son buys things for me instead of the other way around.

:? 8)
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