Worming and resistance issues.

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Bright Raven
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:43 am

Ebenezer wrote:Never worm anything over 3 YO old.


I don't think that is good advice if you have liver flukes.

The parasite/host relationship has been going on for over 3 billion years - give or take a couple billion. It is like an arms race, no one wins.

Mammals do develop defenses against parasites but that does not mean they do not suffer damage, illness and down time. The parasite has the advantage in numbers - they adapt much faster than a mammal.

If you have taken parasitology, medical parasitology, advanced graduate level Invertebrate Biology and Speciation, you know that in biological systems, the host has a high probability of survival but the host may not perform well. In nature, survival is all that is needed to perpetuate the species but in animal husbandry, we want the host animal to perform at a much higher level than in nature. If you want performance, not treating or preventing a fluke infestation of the liver and the resulting damage is not going to get you there .
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:59 am

Eben - You're so darn cold, worms can't survive!!! LOL
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Ebenezer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:03 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:Never worm anything over 3 YO old.


I don't think that is good advice if you have liver flukes.

The parasite/host relationship has been going on for over 3 billion years - give or take a couple billion. It is like an arms race, no one wins.

Mammals do develop defenses against parasites but that does not mean they do not suffer damage, illness and down time. The parasite has the advantage in numbers - they adapt much faster than a mammal.

If you have taken parasitology, medical parasitology, advanced graduate level Invertebrate Biology and Speciation, you know that in biological systems, the host has a high probability of survival but the host may not perform well. In nature, survival is all that is needed to perpetuate the species but in animal husbandry, we want the host animal to perform at a much higher level than in nature. If you want performance, not treating or preventing a fluke infestation of the liver and the resulting damage is not going to get you there .
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I don't have liver flukes. Cattle do fine. Thanks anyway.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:21 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:Never worm anything over 3 YO old.


I don't think that is good advice if you have liver flukes.

The parasite/host relationship has been going on for over 3 billion years - give or take a couple billion. It is like an arms race, no one wins.

Mammals do develop defenses against parasites but that does not mean they do not suffer damage, illness and down time. The parasite has the advantage in numbers - they adapt much faster than a mammal.

If you have taken parasitology, medical parasitology, advanced graduate level Invertebrate Biology and Speciation, you know that in biological systems, the host has a high probability of survival but the host may not perform well. In nature, survival is all that is needed to perpetuate the species but in animal husbandry, we want the host animal to perform at a much higher level than in nature. If you want performance, not treating or preventing a fluke infestation of the liver and the resulting damage is not going to get you there .
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I don't have liver flukes. Cattle do fine. Thanks anyway.


Gotcha. According to Lucky_P, we don't have any in Kentucky. I still worm for the benefit of killing ticks which Ivermectin does. That might help suppress the likelihood of anaplasmosis. Also lice, worms, etc. It is relatively inexpensive with Eprinex.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby ddd75 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:05 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Ebenezer wrote:Never worm anything over 3 YO old.


I don't think that is good advice if you have liver flukes.

The parasite/host relationship has been going on for over 3 billion years - give or take a couple billion. It is like an arms race, no one wins.

Mammals do develop defenses against parasites but that does not mean they do not suffer damage, illness and down time. The parasite has the advantage in numbers - they adapt much faster than a mammal.

If you have taken parasitology, medical parasitology, advanced graduate level Invertebrate Biology and Speciation, you know that in biological systems, the host has a high probability of survival but the host may not perform well. In nature, survival is all that is needed to perpetuate the species but in animal husbandry, we want the host animal to perform at a much higher level than in nature. If you want performance, not treating or preventing a fluke infestation of the liver and the resulting damage is not going to get you there .
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if they developed faster then wouldn't they completely take out their source?


sounds to me its a balancing act of superior animals being resistant, breeding more superior animals.. vs. human touched propped up crap cows infecting the entire herd and using these same animals as breeding stock..
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Caustic Burno » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:34 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:I'm done worming our cattle on an as needed basis. We've had some worm issues since we quit worming everything twice a year. So now we'll just get back on the twice yearly worm protocol and go down with the ship like the rest of the cattlemen I suppose. The UGA worm and parasites studies of only treating calves and the cows that look like they need to be wormed isn't working for us. The results we're seeing in the real world don't seem to be the same.


I agree it pays dividends in pounds.
I went to last week of March and Labor Day for worming. Vaccination’s first week of January.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:50 pm

There has been a lot of research saying mature cows build a resistance to worms. It does not say they don't have any. A small amount of infestation "may" not affect performance of a commercial cow, expected to wean a calf each year. But, they are still harboring some types of worms and that means they are spreading them.
I get two - 5 Liter Pour On from my vet (generic Ivermectin, drop-ship discounted order) for $95.33. That's $0.01 per ml. Dose is 1ml / 22#. A 1700# cow divided by 22# is 77. That's less than $1 for me (and that's for my bigger cows). My herd probably averages 1550#.
Even if you used the original Ivermec (Valley Vet - $259.95/5 L) - it would cost $3.90 for a 1700# cow ($0.05/ml).
Besides taking care of internal parasites (including grubs), it takes care of external ones also. Seems money well spent. Just saying.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby ddd75 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:49 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:There has been a lot of research saying mature cows build a resistance to worms. It does not say they don't have any. A small amount of infestation "may" not affect performance of a commercial cow, expected to wean a calf each year. But, they are still harboring some types of worms and that means they are spreading them.
I get two - 5 Liter Pour On from my vet (generic Ivermectin, drop-ship discounted order) for $95.33. That's $0.01 per ml. Dose is 1ml / 22#. A 1700# cow divided by 22# is 77. That's less than $1 for me (and that's for my bigger cows). My herd probably averages 1550#.
Even if you used the original Ivermec (Valley Vet - $259.95/5 L) - it would cost $3.90 for a 1700# cow ($0.05/ml).
Besides taking care of internal parasites (including grubs), it takes care of external ones also. Seems money well spent. Just saying.


a cow will always have worms.. no matter how much you worm them.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:43 pm

Yes, and to what degree will make a difference in their weight and performance.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Redgully » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:32 pm

Reading through this thread i have never felt so lucky to be living where i do. I rarely worm and don't vaccinate at all and never have an issue, cows are in top condition and calves grow well. We don't get ticks or liver fluke in my area which makes life much easier. Have never had an animal test positive to bvd. We are in a johnes free area and tuberculosis was eradicated in Australia many years ago. When we slaughter an animal i have a mate who used to do inspections for the health department come and have a look at the insides and only once did he ever notice anything amiss and that was an abcess on the liver. That heifer had been eating apples which is most likely what caused it. I feel for you guys all the extra work you have to do. My vet reckons when i fall I'm gunna fall hard!!
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Lucky » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:37 am

Allot of what is said on here is true and some I disagree with. Around here it seems like people do things to prevent problems they’ve had in the past. I never give the scour guard or pinkeye vaccines but know people who swear by it. I give MultiIn90 every year and it’s $2 a cow, I think it helps my conception rates though. Wormer falls in this same category I guess. To me worming is cheap and easy insurance to make sure the cow or calf has the best chance possible to be successful. I worm my ranch dogs and cat too....especially the cat. You think worming a cow is extra work try worming a ranch kitty who’s job is to kill mice, squirrels, rabbits, birds....frogs....
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:13 am

I also do NOT vaccinate for pinkeye or scours.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:34 am

We've never had worm issues till this year, and it's apparently because we wormed the cattle twice a year whether they needed it or not. I've tried a lot of different things in the cow business and not worming has showed the most negative results the quickest. The cost or time isn't an issue we vaccinate everything with Triangle 10 and Covexin 8. I'm not a big believer in just giving shots - vaccines to animals because there available, resistance is definitely an issue because we made it one by the over use of medicine. Multimin 90 is a good, every animal we treat for something gets a shot of it.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby ddd75 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:05 am

"I've tried a lot of different things in the cow business and not worming has showed the most negative results the quickest."



is it actually a negative result? I would take it as a sign those cows who are showing symptoms are weak and need to be culled.
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Re: Worming and resistance issues.

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:18 am

ddd75 wrote:"I've tried a lot of different things in the cow business and not worming has showed the most negative results the quickest."



is it actually a negative result? I would take it as a sign those cows who are showing symptoms are weak and need to be culled.


I don't think you have a clue what your talking about, but that's been apparent for awhile. I'm trying to help those who don't think they know it all. Those with the knowledge think it's a management problem. (overstocked, and poor water quality) But what the heck do the Doctors know, their the same one's that were preaching resistance issues by mis -using wormers.
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