Bull got in with heifers

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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby TCRanch » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:39 pm

JMJ, the following is quoted by Lucky P from an older thread.

The pelvic bones - and in particular, the pubic symphysis(the ventral suture where the pelvic bones come together), fuse/ossify at around 27 months of age. So...if you can manage to get a heifer bred to calve before 27 months, there's a little more 'wiggle room' available for a little larger calf or less likelihood of dystocia, due to the extra amount of 'give' available - and once the unfused pelvis is 'stretched out' by delivery of a calf, it doesn't quite 'go back to its previous size' - pelvic area remains a bit larger from then on. But, after 27 months of age, those bones will have fused, and there's just less space available. So...if you've got an older, fatter heifer with fused pelvic bones, you may encounter increased incidence of dystocia.
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby JMJ Farms » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:43 pm

Thank you TC. Very informative. Never heard 27 months. Always heard two years. Makes more sense now. Thanks again. Hubby about recouperated?
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby BigBear » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:45 pm

TCRanch wrote:
BigBear wrote:
TCRanch wrote:Just my personal experience but getting bred as 12 months vs 15 can make a huge difference - and not in a good way, even if they've been pelvic measured & it happens to be a calving ease bull. Got the t-shirt! There's also the possibility the OP has a defined calving season & this could throw it (and the heifer) off.


On subject but off topic, I have a neighbor that has about 250 brood cows and he mentioned to me in the past that as long as they are 800 lbs at breeding, he doesn’t care how young they get bred. Seems to defy conventional wisdom but he is highly successful and has a fantastic herd. All registered black angus, cow/calf/feedlot. Does it all in house. I would be interested in hearing everyone’s comments.

How many does he have to pull? How many calves &/or heifers does he lose? How many of those heifers breed back & are they stunted? "Successful" is subjective. If it's working for him, that's great. Personally I wouldn't risk my heifers.


I wholeheartedly agree on the successful part. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don’t know all the specifics of his business but he’s said if he has to pull a calf or “one looks at me a way I don’t like” he culls. He did loose several calves this winter but they were unassisted and born live. We had a hard stretch in late January/early February. This approach seems to work for him but I was shocked to hear that
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby BigBear » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:47 pm

TCRanch wrote:JMJ, the following is quoted by Lucky P from an older thread.

The pelvic bones - and in particular, the pubic symphysis(the ventral suture where the pelvic bones come together), fuse/ossify at around 27 months of age. So...if you can manage to get a heifer bred to calve before 27 months, there's a little more 'wiggle room' available for a little larger calf or less likelihood of dystocia, due to the extra amount of 'give' available - and once the unfused pelvis is 'stretched out' by delivery of a calf, it doesn't quite 'go back to its previous size' - pelvic area remains a bit larger from then on. But, after 27 months of age, those bones will have fused, and there's just less space available. So...if you've got an older, fatter heifer with fused pelvic bones, you may encounter increased incidence of dystocia.


I agree, great information. Thanks TC
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby TCRanch » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:01 pm

Now I'm on a roll. Following is a copy/paste from one of my threads a couple years ago about why I always have my heifers pelvic measured. And BigBear, keep in mind these heifers were 10/11 months old at the time, wouldn't be bred until 15 months so still a low of growing (referencing your neighbors' 800 lb gauge). Big heifers & big butts don't always equal a big pelvic measurement:

Sometimes small things come in big packages. Vet was out yesterday to BANGS, pelvic measure & administer the 5 way VL5 on our replacement heifers.
Rear end #1 is almost 11 months old, weighs appx 720 lbs, scored a solid 160 & comes from a lineage of easy, early calving.
Rear end #2 is almost 10 months old, weighs appx 665 lbs, scored a pitiful 121 but is from a 1st calf heifer from the same lineage as #1. Obviously she didn't make the cut.
Rear end #3 is 11 months old, appx 710 lbs & also scored 121. What????!!! Vet measured a 2nd time because even he was surprised. Her lineage is awesome: always has the highest scores of the replacement heifers and generally the first to calve, great bags, raises great calves . . . the whole package and I've retained every heifer. Until now. And what's really puzzling is last year her sister scored 170 & they have the same sire.

So my $.02: pelvic measurements are absolutely worth it! I would have kept that third heifer without giving it a 2nd thought and ended up with a train wreck.

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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby TCRanch » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:07 pm

JMJ Farms wrote:Thank you TC. Very informative. Never heard 27 months. Always heard two years. Makes more sense now. Thanks again. Hubby about recouperated?

If anybody knows, it's Lucky P!

He's recovered from our bull shenanigans/subsequent fence drama last weekend but still taking it slow after surgery. Thanks for asking!
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:23 pm

Let me get this straight - TC 's hubby is Lucky_P?? Good to know!
I had typed a long response to JMJ's comment, but realized there were more comments. Lucky described that PERFECTLY!! I have had several articles about the subject in my newsletter.
Not saying 3 yr olds don't make "smarter" momma cows - not saying they do either. I have calved 2 yr olds for nearly 50 years, and mothering has been nearly a 0 factor. Many, many years ago we had one heifer that refused to take care of her calf. Hubby almost got the gun. He was livid. Got the dog instead. Funny how impending danger to the offspring will "kick-in" the instincts. Being 100% AI, I should have trouble with the 2yr olds getting rebred, but we don't. They may fall off 3 weeks, but I try to get them to calve the first week of our 60 day calving season, so they still have plenty of time for a repeat.
Time is money. I don't like to waste 6 months. And, I don't believe in "wasting" that first calf. Out of 6 in my show string - two were out of 2 yr olds. One Jan calf won several Supremes this season. I do not pick out a super CE "heifer bull". I don't breed to super hard calvers, but I expect my heifers to work for me. Don't know when the last heifer needed assistance for a normal presentation calf, but I do know it has not been since some time prior to Jan 2013, since nephew has been here.

Back to OP - wait 10-14 days and Lutalyse. Cheap and safe.
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby TCRanch » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:14 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:[b]Let me get this straight - TC 's hubby is Lucky_P?? Good to know!
[/b]I had typed a long response to JMJ's comment, but realized there were more comments. Lucky described that PERFECTLY!! I have had several articles about the subject in my newsletter.
Not saying 3 yr olds don't make "smarter" momma cows - not saying they do either. I have calved 2 yr olds for nearly 50 years, and mothering has been nearly a 0 factor. Many, many years ago we had one heifer that refused to take care of her calf. Hubby almost got the gun. He was livid. Got the dog instead. Funny how impending danger to the offspring will "kick-in" the instincts. Being 100% AI, I should have trouble with the 2yr olds getting rebred, but we don't. They may fall off 3 weeks, but I try to get them to calve the first week of our 60 day calving season, so they still have plenty of time for a repeat.
Time is money. I don't like to waste 6 months. And, I don't believe in "wasting" that first calf. Out of 6 in my show string - two were out of 2 yr olds. One Jan calf won several Supremes this season. I do not pick out a super CE "heifer bull". I don't breed to super hard calvers, but I expect my heifers to work for me. Don't know when the last heifer needed assistance for a normal presentation calf, but I do know it has not been since some time prior to Jan 2013, since nephew has been here.

Back to OP - wait 10-14 days and Lutalyse. Cheap and safe.

No. I was giving Lucky P full credit for his vast knowledge & contribution to this board. And then I responded to JMJ's question about my husband (who's just a hot mess right now).
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:40 pm

LOL gotcha!!
Hope your "real" hubby is doing better soon.
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Re: Bull got in with heifers

Postby TCRanch » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:23 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:LOL gotcha!!
Hope your "real" hubby is doing better soon.

Thanks, me too! :lol:
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