First timer lots of questions , sorry!

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by LCBulls » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:17 pm

I believe that CE is more important than BW as a EPD to use on Heifers. Although they normally go hand in hand.
Obviously the more accurate the better if you Want the peace of mind. I’d say anything over .70 is fairly proven.

I agree with Resource and Renown on the cows. Renown has a little more frame and neck extension than Resource. They perform similar but Resources are in a thicker more moderate package.



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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:19 pm

Bar23 wrote:To start I purchased 8 registered angus heifers , and 4 11 year old registered angus pregnant cows. Cows are due in a month. Heifers are all 11 months. I saw a post on SAV President , was thinking him on the older cows? I also read not to push first time heifers with a “curve bender” or they might not breed back? So recommendations on a bull? I was thinking SAV Rainfall or Millbar Hickock Sexed semen? Thanks


There are VERY FEW SAV President calves in the United States right now, excluding what is at SAV, Angus Association only shows 38 that are DNA parentage proven, we have 4 of them, two daughters, two sons, with more on the way. All of them could have easily been calved by a healthy registered Angus heifer in my opinion. We have heifers bred right now to SAV Elation and he is a +1 CED, so President at a +4 should not be an issue.

As for SAV President, his calves are stunners. After seeing a few born you will want A LOT more of them! Take a look at ours right here.

Image

and

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People can say what they want, but SAV President 6847 is the Rolls Royce of Angus bulls. You get Blackcap May 4136, Coleman Charlo, and a deep, deep pedigree. On top of that, Herbster packs that semen with 40 million per straw which will help your conception rates, as if President needed any help, he is very virile as it stands.

My only other bit of advice if you absolutely feel the need to avoid dystocia on your heifers, is to go with SAV Raindance sexed semen from ST Genetics. That will pretty much assure a daughter, which should be easy for your gals to give birth to. We have multiple SAV Raindance daughters on the ground right now, and they are excellent as well, I'm just partial to President over Raindance.

If you order semen from Herbster Angus, get some straws of SAV Harvestor if he is still producing, I've never seen daughters as nice as he produces, and your cows can handle him, don't use him on your heifers though. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Luckiamute » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:04 pm

Cdcollett wrote:From genex Pa Fortitude works well on heifers, good thickness and has a nice balanced set of epd’s with reasonable proof. I’d use him on heifers and cows if you want to keep it simple and be happy with the outcome. Good luck.


A lot of good suggestions have been provided, but if you're looking for a well-proven bull I would echo the suggestion to use PA Fortitude 2500 from Genex. I have had very good luck using him. His bull calves make nice steers and his offspring have been very docile and easy to handle/work. Another older, well-proven bull from Genex to use on heifers is Connealy Right Answer. Great calving ease, good growth, and he produces very nice females.

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by T & B farms » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:57 am

Right answer is awesome. His daughters raise the biggest calves of anything I have. I keep talking myself out of using him more, I’m a sucker for some of these new genetics. I have thought very hard on buying 50 straws of him to have in the tank, I’d say his production days are coming to an end

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:12 am

Dsth wrote:The first thing you should look at in a bull is calving ease for the heifers. talk to your AI tech or supplier about what traits are important to you and let them recommend bulls that fit your program. I would not spend a lot of money on older cows and more on the heifers since they should have the best genetics.

Before the "first thing" you need to define the market for your cattle. If they are not going to be sale toppers in a registered sale consider the cost of semen versus returns. Many decisions on AI work are void of the consideration of the profit made on the calves.

Do not fall for the new bull game or the great bull with few calves. Both are red flags.

Look for proven bulls and bulls that will work in your environment. A ride to local herds to see what actually works is worth 100 times the advice you will get on this site.

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:53 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Dsth wrote:The first thing you should look at in a bull is calving ease for the heifers. talk to your AI tech or supplier about what traits are important to you and let them recommend bulls that fit your program. I would not spend a lot of money on older cows and more on the heifers since they should have the best genetics.

Before the "first thing" you need to define the market for your cattle. If they are not going to be sale toppers in a registered sale consider the cost of semen versus returns. Many decisions on AI work are void of the consideration of the profit made on the calves.

Do not fall for the new bull game or the great bull with few calves. Both are red flags.

Look for proven bulls and bulls that will work in your environment. A ride to local herds to see what actually works is worth 100 times the advice you will get on this site.


Then breed them all to Hoover Dam, he’s not the “hottest new bull” nor is he a one hit wonder. He is incredibly accurate, and basically a legend at this point.
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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Statefan62 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:21 pm

Basin excitement is another option. My herd bull is out of him with a Hoover dam sired cow. Around here some commercial guys don’t feed their heifers any grain for the last 60 days until they calve and pour them the grain after they calve and they balloon up. Something to think about if your worried about BW I never had any trouble feeding my own but everyone has a way of doing things.

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Son of Butch » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:17 pm

Bar23 wrote:what bw and accuracy should I look for to breed heifers ?

Breed Average
ced 7
bw 1.3
Well grown heifers should have no problem calving to a breed average bull of the same breed.

ced 8
bw 1.2 accuracy .70 or better and you'll be fine.

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Cdcollett » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:19 pm

Birthweight accuracy is the first epd to get “proven”. Anything below .85 accuracy means very little because if my memory serves me its less than 5 herds turning in data. Until .85 epds can be manipulated by contemporary groups or cherry picking by the breeder on what calves to turn data in on. Not always on purpose meaning I won’t register a calf with a 100 plus Lb birth weight. Part of the reason numbers tend to deflate at .85. On anything less than .85 look over the pedigree & they will probably be fine. Very few breeders are trying to breed high birthweight low ced bulls. Really more going too extreme on calving ease.

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:06 pm

Cdcollett wrote:Birthweight accuracy is the first epd to get “proven”. Anything below .85 accuracy means very little because if my memory serves me its less than 5 herds turning in data. Until .85 epds can be manipulated by contemporary groups or cherry picking by the breeder on what calves to turn data in on. Not always on purpose meaning I won’t register a calf with a 100 plus Lb birth weight. Part of the reason numbers tend to deflate at .85. On anything less than .85 look over the pedigree & they will probably be fine. Very few breeders are trying to breed high birthweight low ced bulls. Really more going too extreme on calving ease.


Angus are naturally calving ease. This trend towards breeding calving ease generation after generation is not producing a better example in my opinion. Our average calf is about 90 pounds, and we have only pulled 1-2 in the last 4 years, no prolapses either. What we do here isn’t for everyone, and I’m not pushing it, I’m just saying that we use big AI bulls with negative CED’s on big cows and as you can imagine the calf and subsequent weaned animal are not small. We aren’t going for small, but to each their own.

Very few people I know do this, but if you are buying a bull for your herd, I would go with a moderately positive CED bull for heifers +4 to +8, and on cows don’t even concern yourself with CED, focus on increasing frame and WW, RADG and $B among a few others.

Again, disclaimer, don’t try this at home if this doesn’t suit your operation. It’s produced nice cattle for us, but doesn’t mean it will work for your location or operation.
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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Ebenezer » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:00 am

Angus are naturally calving ease.
Not sure why AAA has placed so much effort of CED, BW and CEM if this is a true statement. I've seen differently and know differently. Thus people are rushing for bulls with CED under the left tip of the bell curve. It is a fad, an over reaction, a problem building for the future cattle but it is not a wise move to go with extremes and build concentrations on any one trait. For some reason many of the membership cannot help but jump on the "fad train".

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by Hunter » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:55 am

FWIW, my first bull was CED +9 and a +1.0 BW when I bought him.
He now has a CED +5 and we had no issues using him on heifers. I didn't want a huge CED or BW number b/c I wanted to keep this bull for as long as he keeps producing.

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Re: First timer lots of questions , sorry!

Post by NEFarmwife » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:35 am

Luckiamute wrote:
Cdcollett wrote:From genex Pa Fortitude works well on heifers, good thickness and has a nice balanced set of epd’s with reasonable proof. I’d use him on heifers and cows if you want to keep it simple and be happy with the outcome. Good luck.


A lot of good suggestions have been provided, but if you're looking for a well-proven bull I would echo the suggestion to use PA Fortitude 2500 from Genex. I have had very good luck using him. His bull calves make nice steers and his offspring have been very docile and easy to handle/work. Another older, well-proven bull from Genex to use on heifers is Connealy Right Answer. Great calving ease, good growth, and he produces very nice females.


We have a Fortitude granddaughter. Hubby and FIL both believe she is the best heifer on the farm. I didn't like her when she first arrived, so I called her Butterface. Had the pheno that you desire but her head looked weird to me. Hubby joked that, that's why she was calving ease...head just slid right on out. :cowboy: She don't look like a Butterface anymore but she's keeping her name!

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