God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
Locked
User avatar
Bestoutwest
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: Idaho
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Bestoutwest » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:29 pm

Luckiamute wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:13 am
Hunter wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:51 am
How long can the average bull produce semen?
How many straws can an average bull produce?
Not sure I have those answers, but here's a good example for reference. Mytty In Focus is/was one of the most popular Black Angus bulls of all time. I remember recently reading something that he is in the top 5 all-time for breed registrations. I believe that number is more than 45,000 head. Keep in mind that these are just the REGISTERED offspring. They do not include commercial calves ... and he was a very popular bull with the commercial sector during his heyday.
This is from the Mytty ranch website.

First calves on the ground this fall are light with lots of vigor. .... Mytty In Focus ... He has been bred to over 300,000 commercial heifers across the country.


For the great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. ~Vincent van Gogh
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.-Julius Caesar

Till-Hill
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 962
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:29 pm
Location: Waterville, Iowa
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 67 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Till-Hill » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:30 pm

Just read an article 2.5 million units of beef semen were sold in USA in 2018, did not account for exported

User avatar
Brookhill Angus
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2028
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:45 pm
Has thanked: 545 times
Been thanked: 363 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:19 pm

Ky hills wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:44 am
I think this has been a very interesting, informative and as well irritating discussion. Tempers have flared as comparisons made. I think that as Raven stated there is a disconnect between some registered and commercial outfits. It's unfair to compare management of either against the other, different goals that seem antagonistic yet ultimately should work out to an eventual symbiotic relationship of sorts. A commercial producer has to watch their bottom line close with expenses on the rise and cattle prices ever changing yet seldom rising to a level of comfort. Doesn't mean they aren't doing it right or perpetuating poor management practices. I have seen quite a change in management across the board in my 44 years. Commercial producers are doing more with less in accordance in return than ever before. The few incentives are sometimes not really worth the extra labor and expense.
Registered producers are in a business that relies on pomp and circumstance as a mainstay of advertising and promotion. I used to utilize AI in my registered herd. Had calves one year by a bull that had sold half interest for $75,000, one for $50,000, one for 35,000 that had won an Alabama bull test and maybe set a record I don't remember all the details that was back in the early 90's. That was a real good calf crop, sold them for an average of $1000, was hoping for more but the tide was turning then and demand was low. I get some satisfaction in that a cousin and a friend each got one and both Bulls ended staying in their herds for several years. I believe my cousin used his bull for 7 years. I always bred cattle with the commercial breeder in mind because that was my customer base. Today no one will likely ever have heard of any of those Bulls except for perhaps folks involved during that time period. The goal post keeps moving.
If I were a registered Angus breeder of any size, I would likely try to use this young SAV bull at least on a small number as I believe the calves will be in demand in those circles for at least a time. With new ones coming one frequently attention shifts to the next quickly. Some as they are proven to be something special will maintain a level of market acceptance for several years.
From a commercial standpoint which is where I am now, I would not use that bull simply because of price. I have AI bred almost our whole herd 4 years ago to PA Power Tool and Stevensons Rockmount. And kept a registered son of both Bulls, still have the PowerTool, he is out of an Image Maker X Nichols Extra H6 daughter. His calves are some very nice fast growing calves, so I would consider him to be a definite herd improver for us. I have also used Hoover Dam, on some registered and commercial cows and heifers. I feel 20$ a straw is going to get some real good Bulls for commercial or purebred/registered AI. To that point I also see nothing wrong with using good quality home raised Bulls. They are not always inferior, and are usually well suited for their environments and management. This home raised Power Tool bull is putting some nice calves on the ground, time will tell for maternal quality.
I like everything you said. If folks don't want to touch SAV America 8018. Herbster has a bull that I think would make sense for the commercial producer doing AI, SAV Cutting Edge. You don't hear much about him, but he is a really good bull from what I can tell. Here is a video of him.

http://bit.ly/2UX9ehv
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

User avatar
Bestoutwest
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: Idaho
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Bestoutwest » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:29 pm

I still can't see justifying $80/straw on an unproven bull when there's literally dozens of bulls with better percentages on solid numbers for a fraction of the price. And I'm not talking about junk bulls, I'm talking bulls that are still pretty strong. The difference is that those other bulls have been doing it, for multiple herds, and proving that they're pretty good.

Maybe in a few years he'll prove his weight in gold, but for now I just don't see it.
For the great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. ~Vincent van Gogh
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.-Julius Caesar

User avatar
Bright Raven
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10537
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 857 times
Been thanked: 883 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:38 pm

Bestoutwest wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:29 pm
I still can't see justifying $80/straw on an unproven bull when there's literally dozens of bulls with better percentages on solid numbers for a fraction of the price. And I'm not talking about junk bulls, I'm talking bulls that are still pretty strong. The difference is that those other bulls have been doing it, for multiple herds, and proving that they're pretty good.

Maybe in a few years he'll prove his weight in gold, but for now I just don't see it.
If you wait, you are too late.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Brookhill Angus
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2028
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:45 pm
Has thanked: 545 times
Been thanked: 363 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:40 pm

One thing I have noticed after reading through a lot of these postings is this, a lot of people, and I mean a LOT!, seem to NOT be too fond of SAV. I try to figure it out, but cannot at this time.

I've also noticed this, there are some MAJOR ranches that have sold top, highly desirable bulls, and they fell flat on their face as far as semen production. I won't mention names, but I'm sure some of you know who they are. Bull is a sale topper, then POOF! where is the semen? Where is the bull? You never hear of them again. You keep calling, and you keep getting excuses why he is not available.

I don't see that happen too often at SAV or Herbster Angus, if EVER. I've never called Herbster and been told "Sorry, but Harvestor or International is not producing, or President is having trouble, we'll get back with you when things sort themselves out" I've never been told that ever by them. That tells me that those bulls have some serious merit, and the I know they have merit because I settle cows/heifers with them usually on the first try versus some of the Select Sires and Origen semen I have used. Which by the way, I won't stop using, and I have a tank full of ABS, Origen, and Select Sires bulls.

Things happen in the cattle business, and I know it must be extremely disappointing to have your top bull not produce quality semen, good enough to guarantee a certain level of quality.

From all my experiences with Charles Herbster, he goes over the bulls with a fine tooth comb. I know for a fact that he put Bubs Southern Charm under a lot of scrutiny before he made a decision on him, which makes me very comfortable in using the bull moving forward.

I'm not saying other ranches play fast and lose with things, but one thing I really like about SAV and Herbster is that if the semen is not top notch, it doesn't get sold. That matters to me when I'm spending money and time AI'ng. It should matter to you as well.
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

User avatar
Brookhill Angus
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2028
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:45 pm
Has thanked: 545 times
Been thanked: 363 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:46 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:38 pm
Bestoutwest wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:29 pm
I still can't see justifying $80/straw on an unproven bull when there's literally dozens of bulls with better percentages on solid numbers for a fraction of the price. And I'm not talking about junk bulls, I'm talking bulls that are still pretty strong. The difference is that those other bulls have been doing it, for multiple herds, and proving that they're pretty good.

Maybe in a few years he'll prove his weight in gold, but for now I just don't see it.
If you wait, you are too late.
There is definitely a first mover advantage, but for those that have to see a bull perform for years and years, then they need to breed to Hoover Dam or MYTTY in Focus. I have progeny from both in my herd, but nobody will be excited about buying those names at this point, they are old news in the eyes of many.

I just finished breeding some cows to EXAR Denver 2002B for my own personal use, because if I offered the progeny, nobody would be interested in calves out of him anymore. I'm trying for some daughters, and if I get sons they probably won't sell for much. He's a really good bull, but like I said, yesterday's news.
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

plumber_greg
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:51 pm
Location: NW Missouri
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by plumber_greg » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:47 pm

I wonder, if using America and you are a seedstock producer, are you mating him with females whose EPDs and phenotypes will enhance the offspring, or are you simply using a name to sell offspring.
No herd, anywhere, has even half of there females that would be the ideal cow to mate with him.
I've worked around several purebred breeders.
Rent some pasture to one that has several bulls at Genex and Select Sires. Every cow of his is studied and the correct mating attempted. He uses several AI sires every year.
Simply breeding a name to a name does not guarantee a correct calf. An attempt to make the calf, whether a bull or heifer, better than the mamma is way more complicated than that, that's why every bull prospect shouldn't be a bull. GS
Last edited by plumber_greg on Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just call me plumberscrack

User avatar
Bright Raven
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10537
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 857 times
Been thanked: 883 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:48 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:40 pm
One thing I have noticed after reading through a lot of these postings is this, a lot of people, and I mean a LOT!, seem to NOT be too fond of SAV. I try to figure it out, but cannot at this time.

I've also noticed this, there are some MAJOR ranches that have sold top, highly desirable bulls, and they fell flat on their face as far as semen production. I won't mention names, but I'm sure some of you know who they are. Bull is a sale topper, then POOF! where is the semen? Where is the bull? You never hear of them again. You keep calling, and you keep getting excuses why he is not available.

I don't see that happen too often at SAV or Herbster Angus, if EVER. I've never called Herbster and been told "Sorry, but Harvestor or International is not producing, or President is having trouble, we'll get back with you when things sort themselves out" I've never been told that ever by them. That tells me that those bulls have some serious merit, and the I know they have merit because I settle cows/heifers with them usually on the first try versus some of the Select Sires and Origen semen I have used. Which by the way, I won't stop using, and I have a tank full of ABS, Origen, and Select Sires bulls.

Things happen in the cattle business, and I know it must be extremely disappointing to have your top bull not produce quality semen, good enough to guarantee a certain level of quality.

From all my experiences with Charles Herbster, he goes over the bulls with a fine tooth comb. I know for a fact that he put Bubs Southern Charm under a lot of scrutiny before he made a decision on him, which makes me very comfortable in using the bull moving forward.

I'm not saying other ranches play fast and lose with things, but one thing I really like about SAV and Herbster is that if the semen is not top notch, it doesn't get sold. That matters to me when I'm spending money and time AI'ng. It should matter to you as well.
There is a paucity of these type ailments in the Simmental Breed but it does happen. ;-)

Cowboy Cut just went through a hiccup. I also had this discussion with a Genex Representative. Keep in mind, these bulls are at times managed in difficult environments where the bulls don't have much room and don't get enough exercise. The life of a gigalo bull is not all it is cracked up to be.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

Dave
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7979
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:35 pm
Location: Baker County, Oregon
Been thanked: 452 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Dave » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:06 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:40 pm
One thing I have noticed after reading through a lot of these postings is this, a lot of people, and I mean a LOT!, seem to NOT be too fond of SAV. I try to figure it out, but cannot at this time.
I just looked through the 2018 beef sire directory from Select Sires. Of the 72 Angus bulls in the directory only 9 are SAV. Three of the nine are brand new bulls with an accuracy of .05%. Only about 1 in 7 or 8 have SAV in the pedigree. Those are mainly Bismark or Final Answer. There are 14 other bulls listed before the first SAV. The others are buried way to the back of the directory. My conclusion is that Select Sires isn't exactly promoting them.
That said I used a Bismark son for several years and was real happy with him. But I also had an Image Maker son that I really liked until someone filled the switch and he became dangerous.

User avatar
Bright Raven
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10537
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 857 times
Been thanked: 883 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:25 pm

Dave wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:06 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:40 pm
One thing I have noticed after reading through a lot of these postings is this, a lot of people, and I mean a LOT!, seem to NOT be too fond of SAV. I try to figure it out, but cannot at this time.
I just looked through the 2018 beef sire directory from Select Sires. Of the 72 Angus bulls in the directory only 9 are SAV. Three of the nine are brand new bulls with an accuracy of .05%. Only about 1 in 7 or 8 have SAV in the pedigree. Those are mainly Bismark or Final Answer. There are 14 other bulls listed before the first SAV. The others are buried way to the back of the directory. My conclusion is that Select Sires isn't exactly promoting them.
That said I used a Bismark son for several years and was real happy with him. But I also had an Image Maker son that I really liked until someone filled the switch and he became dangerous.
Select Sires is conservative on their beef breeds - only my opinion. I would suggest that instead of it being a case of SS not promoting SAV, might be a case of SS not being as competitive as other stud companies in paying up for the opportunity to market SAV semen. Just another thought.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Brookhill Angus
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2028
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:45 pm
Has thanked: 545 times
Been thanked: 363 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:35 pm

plumber_greg wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:47 pm
I wonder, if using America and you are a seedstock producer, are you mating him with females whose EPDs and phenotypes will enhance the offspring, or are you simply using a name to sell offspring.
No herd, anywhere, has even half of there females that would be the ideal cow to mate with him.
I've worked around several purebred breeders.
Rent some pasture to one that has several bulls at Genex and Select Sires. Every cow of his is studied and the correct mating attempted. He uses several AI sires every year.
Simply breeding a name to a name does not guarantee a correct calf. An attempt to make the calf, whether a bull or heifer, better than the mamma is way more complicated than that, that's why every bull prospect shouldn't be a bull. GS
That's a very good question. I plan on using him on Baldridge Colonel daughters, as well as some TenX granddaughters.

I look at the EPD's of the dam before I jump headfirst into using any sire, no matter what his price. I'm using some Sydgen Enhance and Bar R Jet Black right now because both will improve what I'm trying to breed for. They aren't high dollar bulls, but they will do exactly what I need done, then maybe I will go back with SAV America on their daughters or President.
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 16674
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: Alabama the Beautiful
Has thanked: 625 times
Been thanked: 590 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by ALACOWMAN » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Bestoutwest wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:29 pm
I still can't see justifying $80/straw on an unproven bull when there's literally dozens of bulls with better percentages on solid numbers for a fraction of the price. And I'm not talking about junk bulls, I'm talking bulls that are still pretty strong. The difference is that those other bulls have been doing it, for multiple herds, and proving that they're pretty good.

Maybe in a few years he'll prove his weight in gold, but for now I just don't see it.
he comes from a proven Sire and Dam ..Course he's his own individual .. But I wouldn't want too take bets against him...way too much in his favor...but $80 feels better in my pocket.. :cowboy:
as an adult,it's clear to me now...why Ernest T Bass, threw rocks at people..

User avatar
Bestoutwest
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: Idaho
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Bestoutwest » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:21 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:47 pm
he comes from a proven Sire and Dam ..Course he's his own individual .. But I wouldn't want too take bets against him...way too much in his favor...but $80 feels better in my pocket.. :cowboy:
I know what you're saying, but how many spectacular race horses have foaled duds? I'd rather spend $20-30 on a straw, $40 on the certificate and $10 on beer.
For the great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. ~Vincent van Gogh
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.-Julius Caesar

Redgully
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:24 am
Location: Karragullen, Western Australia
Has thanked: 426 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: God Bless America! SAV America 8018 to be exact.

Post by Redgully » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:26 pm

Silver wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:31 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:21 am

I cannot see how anyone selling commercial calves could justify semen higher than the average $20 to $30 dollars a straw considering the calf is going to a feeder lot.
A lot of us retain heifers. I would consider AI and over $30 if I though there was really something lacking in my females that I wanted to address quickly. Of course, that would only be if I couldn't source a walking bull that I thought would do the job.

I like to think a good bull to purchase should not cost more than the price of 5 good steer calves. Although it seems that good bull power has actually got cheaper as a ratio over the years.
So based on that formula $1,300 steer calves x5 = $6,500.
Bull used for 3 years x 25 calves a year = 75 calves
Works out to $86 per calf natural service.
Of course, the price paid for the bull and the length of time he sticks around changes the price per service quite quickly.
Most of my bulls the last few years have been between $3,500 and $5,000, so considering the quality I feel like I am getting a fair shake from my seedstock guys.

SAV America doesn't fit my program so I wouldn't be interested.
Not to mention being able to sell the bull once done. Wont bring top dollar but usually they are a good weight so go for a bit.

Locked