Negative $EN

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
VaCowman
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Re: Negative $EN

Post by VaCowman » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:12 am

I agree 100%...I want a bull that is good at a lot of things, not just one or two "important" traits. I think Hoover Dam is a prime example of an "average" or well-balanced bull by his numbers. Breed average or better on most every trait measured by epd's. I think his cows work in most environments if applied correctly. I struggle finding an equally balanced sire to replace him.



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Re: Negative $EN

Post by VaCowman » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:14 am

Lucky_P wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:41 pm
VaCowman - spot on... Gardens Wave made some pretty nice cows here, out of old linebred Fleckvieh-influenced SimAngus cows... moderate frame, held their condition well, and raised good calves - bred mostly to Shorthorn or Braunvieh bulls here. And, they were easy to look at; actually, pretty fancy to my eyes.
Only got 3 Wave daughters, and none were the least bit 'hot'. I was a little worried about that... his initial Doc epd was -23, and we'd already bred 10 cows to him.
Wish I'd bought more semen on him before ABS quit carrying him. Saw some sell for $250/unit not too long ago.
Never ate any of the Wave steers, but was toying with the idea of AIing the last remaining Wave daughter to an Akaushi sire to produce a personal freezer beef steer, but we dispersed the herd.

Used N Bar PrimeTime D806 around the same time... downsized 'em a bit more than Wave, and they were so ugly, you couldn't hardly stand to look at them until they were 5 or 6 years old... ever see a photo of his dam...they all had that head. But... they raised a decent calf every year, and disposition pretty much followed their dam's... not particularly 'hot', but they tended to be a little 'smarter' than the Waves... and would get a little antsy waiting their turn in the crowding alley. They got easier to look at as they matured, and most of them gave no reason to take a ride to town - they weren't fancy, just honest working girls.
I've got that mating in the works! (Akaushi X Wave) Looking forward to unzipping that thing in a couple years.

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Stocker Steve » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:04 pm

I assume the sire directories contain what sells best. So the question is - - what are the goals of the guys buying extreme semen? The biggest AI operator locally is a maximizer chasing +100 lb WW EPDs. So obviously he is not optimizing towards the middle...

If you have a financial goals you may not be able to afford the effects mainstream AI genetics. Look at Leachman's $ profit index for a different approach.
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Re: Negative $EN

Post by pdfangus » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:08 pm

find a program that makes the kind of cattle you like and buy from that program.....semen does not have to come from a bull stud....once you find a program or programs that you like.....stick with em...

As Bakewell said years ago Like begets Like....
you can not use the bull of the month club and expect consistency.
Consistency is what you have to sell....consistency and reputation must be built.
I LEARNED TO MANY OF THESE TRUTHS TOO LATE IN LIFE
But maybe I can help some young folks avoid the fads...
raise cattle adapted to your environment....raise your own cattle from babies...that is how you can pick out the ones adapted to your environment.
cull any that cannot produce in your environment...retain the ones that can.
Your environment will determine what the cattle will come to look like...
Strength is of no value if it does not have a
useful application for good.
Jim Tate
pdfangus@gmail.com

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Katpau » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:40 pm

Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 am
I'm irritated at all of the extremes. In the sire directories it seems like there are 3 categories. 1: Ultra low BW/ bottom 95% for mature size. 2: top 1% mature size, top 1% yearling weight, and 3: moderate sizes, moderate growth, ultra low accuracies.....
We need a list of bulls that are down the middle. I understand that extremes are catchy, but what about bulls for the rest of us?
I can't tell you how to find those bulls in other breeds, but it is pretty easy with Angus. Go to the the American Angus website. Hover over "Management" Click on "Sire Evaluation Report" Click on the blue box that says "Search the Angus Sire Evaluation Database" and then enter the minimum and maximum values you find acceptable on the traits you are interested in. I recommend you also include a minimum accuracy to eliminate seeing sires with unproven numbers.

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by VaCowman » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:50 am

Katpau wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:40 pm
Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 am
I'm irritated at all of the extremes. In the sire directories it seems like there are 3 categories. 1: Ultra low BW/ bottom 95% for mature size. 2: top 1% mature size, top 1% yearling weight, and 3: moderate sizes, moderate growth, ultra low accuracies.....
We need a list of bulls that are down the middle. I understand that extremes are catchy, but what about bulls for the rest of us?
I can't tell you how to find those bulls in other breeds, but it is pretty easy with Angus. Go to the the American Angus website. Hover over "Management" Click on "Sire Evaluation Report" Click on the blue box that says "Search the Angus Sire Evaluation Database" and then enter the minimum and maximum values you find acceptable on the traits you are interested in. I recommend you also include a minimum accuracy to eliminate seeing sires with unproven numbers.
That is a VERY hand tool! I use it when trying to find potential sires for upcoming matings. The harder you are on the min/max AND minimum accuracies, the more fine tuned the results will be. I start with strict benchmarks and then play around to see what else is out there by making a few adjustments on what I may be willing to compromise on. For several years now, my go to has been HOOVER DAM, and he's still hard to beat. Not sure what I'll follow him up with. He does so many things right.

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Bestoutwest » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:31 am

pdfangus wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:08 pm
find a program that makes the kind of cattle you like and buy from that program.....semen does not have to come from a bull stud....once you find a program or programs that you like.....stick with em...

As Bakewell said years ago Like begets Like....
you can not use the bull of the month club and expect consistency.
Consistency is what you have to sell....consistency and reputation must be built.
I LEARNED TO MANY OF THESE TRUTHS TOO LATE IN LIFE
But maybe I can help some young folks avoid the fads...
raise cattle adapted to your environment....raise your own cattle from babies...that is how you can pick out the ones adapted to your environment.
cull any that cannot produce in your environment...retain the ones that can.
Your environment will determine what the cattle will come to look like...
Jim, I hope you're doing well. This is great advice. I bought a few head from a guy about 10 mile from me to be the basis for the herd. When I AI'd this fall the bull I picked was owned by a couple places really close to me. He didn't have that like he thought, so I asked for the highest accuracy bull he had. I made the mistake of going with a new bull and was not impressed with the end results for personality. I see a few programs out there with the "big" named animals that sell for big $$ and then they have no numbers to back up their older bulls. Kind of telling if you ask me.
For the great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. ~Vincent van Gogh
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.-Julius Caesar

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Sostra » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:01 am

Highest selling bull at last week at Green Valley Cattle was with a -74 $EN. And sold for $140k. Most of the bulls at recent sales were with minus 50 and below. Where is Angus breed heading? Becoming a broiler business?

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Post Oak » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:25 am

The last 2 Angus bulls that I used were +$EN. The positive $EN Angus bulls (for the most part) just look like what Angus bulls are supposed to look like. They gave me some moderate sized heifers off of some larger cows that I had. I wouldn’t stack the genetics of positive $EN in a herd too deep because of loss of growth and frame, but I would use them when needed no problem. BTW , Angus is a MATERNAL breed and I would only use positive $EN bulls for this purpose. I have seen people that have kept heifers from high growth negative $EN bulls and you better keep a feed bin around.
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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Stocker Steve » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:08 am

Post Oak wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:25 am
The last 2 Angus bulls that I used were +$EN. The positive $EN Angus bulls (for the most part) just look like what Angus bulls are supposed to look like. They gave me some moderate sized heifers off of some larger cows that I had. I wouldn’t stack the genetics of positive $EN in a herd too deep because of loss of growth and frame, but I would use them when needed no problem. BTW , Angus is a MATERNAL breed and I would only use positive $EN bulls for this purpose. I have seen people that have kept heifers from high growth negative $EN bulls and you better keep a feed bin around.
I retained some of that kind in a previous life. They kept growing, and many became 1500 to 1600# cows...

I think Red Angus is the maternal breed now.
Last edited by Stocker Steve on Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Post Oak » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 am

Stocker Steve wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:08 am
Post Oak wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:25 am
The last 2 Angus bulls that I used were +$EN. The positive $EN Angus bulls (for the most part) just look like what Angus bulls are supposed to look like. They gave me some moderate sized heifers off of some larger cows that I had. I wouldn’t stack the genetics of positive $EN in a herd too deep because of loss of growth and frame, but I would use them when needed no problem. BTW , Angus is a MATERNAL breed and I would only use positive $EN bulls for this purpose. I have seen people that have kept heifers from high growth negative $EN bulls and you better keep a feed bin around.
I think Red Angus is the maternal breed now.
That might be true, but I have not been exposed to many in my neck of the woods.I would live to get ahold to some Beckton genetics though.
"Stretch your legs to suit your quilt. Very many of us are always busy stretching or shrinking ourselves to suit somebody's quilt besides our own."- John Donald Wade

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Lucky_P » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:35 am

Red Angus Assn. has Maternal Energy epd which is similar, I think, to AAA's $EN.
Been a while since I looked, but IIRC, the more negative the ME, the more 'economical' the cow.
Not sure what RAAA uses to compute it, but suspect mature cow size, milk are major components.
Not sure any other breed associations have developed similar epds.

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by 76 Bar » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:32 am

RAAA:
Maintenance Energy (ME) - predicts differences in daughters’ maintenance energy requirements and is expressed in Mcal/Month. Recognizing that 70% of cowherd feed costs are burned up in maintaining weight and condition, Red Angus’ ME EPD allows for the selection of bulls whose daughters will require less feed; thus, reducing cowherd expenses. Include selection pressure for ME EPD to ensure feed costs don’t get out of line when selection is made for greater performance and production. Edited to note a smaller value is more favorable when comparing animals.

AAA:
Cow Energy Value ($EN) - expressed in dollar savings per cow per year, assesses differences in cow energy requirements as an expected dollar savings difference in daughters of sires. A larger value is more favorable when comparing two animals (more dollars saved on feed energy expenses). Components for computing the cow $EN savings difference include lactation energy requirements and energy costs associated with differences in mature cow size.

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Sostra » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:34 pm

I just saw that SAV's sales report has been published at AAA site. Second highest selling bull S A V Terrain 9140 has $EN at Minus 67. Am I right to think that many people with keep daughters from him.

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Re: Negative $EN

Post by Ebenezer » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:47 pm

Sostra wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:34 pm
I just saw that SAV's sales report has been published at AAA site. Second highest selling bull S A V Terrain 9140 has $EN at Minus 67. Am I right to think that many people with keep daughters from him.
and you're right that they will be young cows in consignment sales. Some will be donor quality and selling open. Live and learn.

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